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3 Simple steps to make plausible giant arthropods; without having to drastically change their anatomy
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Topic Started: Nov 13 2016, 06:00 PM (2,991 Views)
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HangingThief
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Nov 14 2016, 07:11 AM
Post #16
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- Dragonthunders
- Nov 13 2016, 09:12 PM
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A fish doesn't really seem all that different from a bird when you compare a moth to a millipede, a crab to to Sacculina, even a maggot to a fly.
A maggot to a fly is like a talpode to a frog. I honestly think more that between groups they do not vary too much, centipedes look very much like they were 400 million years ago, the same with spiders, and great varieties of insects (all of them are still hexapods with 3 segmented bodies) Of course they have an enormous diversity in terms of species and forms, although they still have the same morphological base, in each corresponding group. Mammals make up an entire class, but compared to insects most of them are virtually identical. There are no vertebrates with more than four limbs. There are no parasitic vertebrates that have turned into shapeless balls of goo that send root- like tendrils into the tissues of their host. There isn't even a single stationary vertebrate species!
The only changes a tadpole makes when it becomes a frog is gradually losing its gill and tail, growing limbs, and its mouth changes and gets wider. A tadpole is almost like a prolonged embryonic period. Whereas the maggot enters a pupal stage where most of its tissues are liquified and rearranged, and emerges as an extravagantly appendaged creature barely recognizable as belonging to the same phylum.
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Dragonthunders
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Nov 14 2016, 11:13 AM
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Mammals make up an entire class, but compared to insects most of them are virtually identical.
I will ignore this because it has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
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There are no vertebrates with more than four limbs.
And there is not insects with more or less that 6 limbs, spiders with more or less that 8 limbs and this pattern is repeated between different clades (Except for crustaceans of course)
- Quote:
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There are no parasitic vertebrates that have turned into shapeless balls of goo that send root- like tendrils into the tissues of their host. There isn't even a single stationary vertebrate species!
You're missing the point in this part, I am not talking about that arthropods in general do not possess enormous diversity but between groups they do not vary too much in terms of morphology. Is something like what happened with sharks and birds, these present a lot of forms that have unique characteristics but still retain the basic bauplan and that does not change over the millions of years.
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Scrublord
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Nov 14 2016, 11:17 AM
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- LittleLibrarian
- Nov 13 2016, 07:55 PM
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Your animal has to be aquatic As we all know, aquatic animals can get much larger than land living ones because the water supports their weight. Not much else to say here. Arthropleura was basically tied for largest arthropod ever, and it was fully terrestrial. - Quote:
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I wonder what would happen if all the major animal groups took different paths....
All life on earth would've taken completely different paths, you'd practically be dealing with an alien planet. Arthropleura's a bit of a red herring in this case. As I pointed out in this editorial: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5846256/1/
the reason land arthropods were able to grow so large in the Carboniferous had less to do with atmospheric oxygen and more with the absence of tetrapods as competitors. Even today, the largest land arthropod, the coconut crab (which is as large as many arthropods in the Carboniferous) lives on oceanic islands with few tetrapods. In mainland environments, arthropods tend to max out at much smaller sizes. And of course, the largest arthropod of all--living or extinct-- is the Japanese spider crab, which lives in the deep ocean and can measure up to 12 feet across.
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HangingThief
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Nov 14 2016, 12:52 PM
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Most of the spider crab's "huge size" comes from it's extremely long, slender legs.
Dragonthunders, you seem to be ignoring that insects are a class, while vertebrates make up an entire subphylum. Also, arachnids and myriapods have variable numbers of legs.
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Dragonthunders
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Nov 14 2016, 01:28 PM
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you seem to be ignoring that insects are a class, while vertebrates make up an entire subphylum.
You seem to ignore also that I never refer to the whole vertebrates, only to the classes that tend to be more conservative, or sharks and birds are the only vertebrates?
- Quote:
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Also, arachnids and myriapods have variable numbers of legs.
That is why I have said only spiders and centipedes, I had never mentioned groups relating to them because enormous differences are exposed each other but never with its own lineages, spiders change a little form the ancient spiders from 400 million years, as scorpions. Keep in mind, most of them arose almost at the same time period, and since those days their morphological variations have not been so great apart of some special individual families and species.
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Coming one day Age of Mankind Humanity fate and its possible finals.
The Long Cosmic Journey The history outside our world.
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Holocene park: Welcome to the biggest adventure of the last 215 million years, where the age of mammals comes to life again! Cambrian mars: An interesting experiment on an unprecedented scale, the life of a particular and important period in the history of our planet, the cambric life, has been transported to a terraformed and habitable mars in an alternative past. Two different paths, two different worlds, but same life and same weirdness.
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Carlos
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Nov 14 2016, 02:09 PM
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Predation from vertebrates is the primary factor in keeping arthropods small nowadays.
Even then, groups like Titanoptera, rivaling Carboniferous species in size, periodically appeared now and then
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Rodlox
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Nov 14 2016, 02:11 PM
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- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Nov 14 2016, 06:30 AM
- Rodlox
- Nov 14 2016, 12:06 AM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Nov 13 2016, 06:00 PM
But I have devised a way for colossal arthropods to exist without having to drastically change their anatomy. If you've been following my project, you know that I used this method for a giant lobster. But for those of you that haven't, let me explain to you how.
exoskeletal problems Molting really does hinder arthropod size, but here's a way to get past it. Have the exoskeleton fall of in pieces. The amount or size of the pieces doesn't really matter. You can also make it release a hormone to speed up exoskeletal hardening, to make it less vulnerable. Speaking of that...
pretty sure that "have the exoskeleton fall off in pieces" qualifies as a drastic change. are there any insects, non-insect arthropods, or non-arthropod inverts which have switched from "whole body shedding" to "piecemeal shedding" ? also, not sure why you put footnotes in, when the footnotes aren't [1]'d in the main text.
But it's not a drastic anatomical change like giving them an exoskeleton. given that that only happened once in the entire history of the arthropods, would suggest that it - or the reversal of it - are pretty danged tough to have happen.
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IIGSY
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Nov 14 2016, 03:59 PM
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- Rodlox
- Nov 14 2016, 02:11 PM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Nov 14 2016, 06:30 AM
- Rodlox
- Nov 14 2016, 12:06 AM
- Insect Illuminati Get Shrekt
- Nov 13 2016, 06:00 PM
But I have devised a way for colossal arthropods to exist without having to drastically change their anatomy. If you've been following my project, you know that I used this method for a giant lobster. But for those of you that haven't, let me explain to you how.
exoskeletal problems Molting really does hinder arthropod size, but here's a way to get past it. Have the exoskeleton fall of in pieces. The amount or size of the pieces doesn't really matter. You can also make it release a hormone to speed up exoskeletal hardening, to make it less vulnerable. Speaking of that...
pretty sure that "have the exoskeleton fall off in pieces" qualifies as a drastic change. are there any insects, non-insect arthropods, or non-arthropod inverts which have switched from "whole body shedding" to "piecemeal shedding" ? also, not sure why you put footnotes in, when the footnotes aren't [1]'d in the main text.
But it's not a drastic anatomical change like giving them an exoskeleton.
given that that only happened once in the entire history of the arthropods, would suggest that it - or the reversal of it - are pretty danged tough to have happen. I meant to say endoskeleton
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
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Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
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IIGSY
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Nov 14 2016, 04:01 PM
Post #24
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- Dragonthunders
- Nov 14 2016, 01:28 PM
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you seem to be ignoring that insects are a class, while vertebrates make up an entire subphylum.
You seem to ignore also that I never refer to the whole vertebrates, only to the classes that tend to be more conservative, or sharks and birds are the only vertebrates? - Quote:
-
Also, arachnids and myriapods have variable numbers of legs.
That is why I have said only spiders and centipedes, I had never mentioned groups relating to them because enormous differences are exposed each other but never with its own lineages, spiders change a little form the ancient spiders from 400 million years, as scorpions. Keep in mind, most of them arose almost at the same time period, and since those days their morphological variations have not been so great apart of some special individual families and species. What he is saying is that arthropods have a more variable number of legs than vertebrates. That being said, what prevents vertebrates from becoming degenerate in the way the mollusks and arthropods have? And don't you dare say it's because they're "more complex".
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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HangingThief
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Nov 14 2016, 04:20 PM
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- Rodlox
- Nov 14 2016, 12:06 AM
are there any insects, non-insect arthropods, or non-arthropod inverts which have switched from "whole body shedding" to "piecemeal shedding"?
Woodlice shed the front and back halves of their exoskeletons separately, sometimes days apart. Pretty sure millipedes shed in pieces too.
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Monster
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Nov 14 2016, 04:28 PM
Post #26
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Yes, millipedes do shed in pieces.
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Nov 14 2016, 06:27 PM
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http://bogleech.com/bio-diptera.html
If you read this guys posts, then you realize just how diverse many groups really are. Give me one vertebrate that is as derived as some of these flies.
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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LittleLazyLass
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Nov 14 2016, 08:49 PM
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What I've gathered from this discussion is that both groups, arthropods and vertebrates, are extremely diverse.
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Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
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When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
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But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
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You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
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HangingThief
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Nov 14 2016, 09:00 PM
Post #29
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Arthropods are undeniably more diverse, though vertebrates might be more diverse proportional to the number of species. There's just more room and a greater variety of niches for tiny animals.
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Hey.
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IIGSY
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Nov 14 2016, 09:17 PM
Post #30
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A huntsman spider that wastes time on the internet because it has nothing better to do
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- HangingThief
- Nov 14 2016, 09:00 PM
Arthropods are undeniably more diverse, though vertebrates might be more diverse proportional to the number of species. There's just more room and a greater variety of niches for tiny animals. Did you see the link I posted?
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Projects Punga: A terraformed world with no vertebrates Last one crawling: The last arthropod
ARTH-6810: A world without vertebrates (It's ded, but you can still read I guess)
Potential ideas- Swamp world: A world covered in lakes, with the largest being caspian sized. Nematozoic: After a mass extinction of ultimate proportions, a single species of nematode is the only surviving animal. Tri-devonian: A devonian like ecosystem with holocene species on three different continents.
Quotes "Arthropod respiratory systems aren't really "inefficient", they're just better suited to their body size. It would be quite inefficient for a tiny creature that can easily get all the oxygen it needs through passive diffusion to have a respiratory system that wastes energy on muscles that pump air into sacs. (Hence why lungless salamanders, uniquely miniscule and hyperabundant tetrapods, have ditched their lungs in favor of breathing with their skin and buccal mucous membranes.) But large, active insects already use muscles to pump air in and out of their spiracles, and I don't see why their tracheae couldn't develop pseudo- lungs if other conditions pressured them to grow larger."-HangingTheif
"Considering the lifespans of modern non- insect arthropods (decade-old old millipedes, 50 year old tarantulas, 100+ year old lobsters) I wouldn't be surprised if Arthropleura had a lifespan exceeding that of a large testudine"-HangingTheif
"Humans have a tribal mindset and it's not alien for tribes to war on each other. I mean, look at the atrocities chimpanzee tribes do to each other. Most of people's groupings and big conflicts in history are directly or obliquely manifestations of this tribal mindset."-Sceynyos-yis
"He's the leader of the bunch You know his Coconut Gun is finally back to fire in spurts. His Coconut Gun Can make you smile If he shoots ya it's firing in spurts. His Coconut Gun Is bigger, faster, stronger too! He's the gun member of the Coconut Crew! HUH!
C.G.! Coconut Gun! C.G.! Co-Coconut Gun! Shoot yourself with a Coconut Gun! HUH!"-Kamineigh
"RIP, rest in Peytoia."-Little
"In Summary: Piss on Lovecraft's racist grave by making lewds of Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep.
Then eat arby's and embrace the void."-Kamineigh
"Dougal Dixon rule 34."-Sayornis
Phylogeny of the arthropods and some related groups
In honor of the greatest clade of all time
More pictures
Other cool things
All African countries can fit into Brazil
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