Domesticated/Feral/Introduced Species

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Domesticated/Feral/Introduced Species
Topic Started: May 29 2008, 07:32 PM (3,882 Views)
Livyatan	May 29 2008, 07:32 PM Post #1
Posts: 1,998 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 24, 2008 Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: "Knowledge never springs from faith. It springs from doubt." - Humayun Azad Nationality: American	This topic is for the discussion of domesticated/feral/introduced species and their roles in future ecosystems. Just so you have some basis for discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduced_species
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Replies:
Paralith	Jun 9 2008, 02:24 PM Post #16
Infant Posts: 89 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 2, 2008 Gender: Female	Will Jun 8 2008, 09:33 AM I think if anything, they will just interbreed into coyote populations. Dogs are only successful as feral animals in areas of high human concentration. Even in feral packs, they still depend on humans for survival. Dogs, just like cockroaches and pigeons, do not have a bright future especially in NA. Foxes and coyotes have proven more adaptable than dogs, as well. I'm not sure I agree. You only really see dogs as feral animals in areas of high human concentration because stray dogs were, at one point or another, owned by humans. So where there are more humans there are likely to be more stray dogs. In places without many humans, less dogs get taken there as well. So we don't really know how well they would do if a pack of them were tossed out in the middle of a dense forest. I would want more support before I would accept such a statement, that's all. Besides, like I said, I'm sure dogs would quickly begin to evolve if they went feral en masse, and would unlikely remain exactly as they are today for long. But, cockroaches? Cockroaches existed long before the hominid line even began, so I'd imagine that they would get along just fine if we all disappeared. There are also many different kinds of cockroaches, and perhaps if there have evolved certain species that are in fact dependent on humans in some way, that still doesn't mean the whole family of species is at risk. Similarly, with pigeons, those species that are mostly confined to urban environments may be at risk, but there are many species of pigeon and the more wild species would probably endure.



Carlos	Jun 9 2008, 03:12 PM Post #17
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	Yes, but domestic pigeons and cockroaches in temperate areas (the later need the warmth of buildings to survive) will decline
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Livyatan	Jun 9 2008, 03:47 PM Post #18
Posts: 1,998 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 24, 2008 Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: "Knowledge never springs from faith. It springs from doubt." - Humayun Azad Nationality: American	Paralith Jun 9 2008, 02:24 PM Will Jun 8 2008, 09:33 AM I think if anything, they will just interbreed into coyote populations. Dogs are only successful as feral animals in areas of high human concentration. Even in feral packs, they still depend on humans for survival. Dogs, just like cockroaches and pigeons, do not have a bright future especially in NA. Foxes and coyotes have proven more adaptable than dogs, as well. I'm not sure I agree. You only really see dogs as feral animals in areas of high human concentration because stray dogs were, at one point or another, owned by humans. So where there are more humans there are likely to be more stray dogs. In places without many humans, less dogs get taken there as well. So we don't really know how well they would do if a pack of them were tossed out in the middle of a dense forest. I would want more support before I would accept such a statement, that's all. Besides, like I said, I'm sure dogs would quickly begin to evolve if they went feral en masse, and would unlikely remain exactly as they are today for long. But, cockroaches? Cockroaches existed long before the hominid line even began, so I'd imagine that they would get along just fine if we all disappeared. There are also many different kinds of cockroaches, and perhaps if there have evolved certain species that are in fact dependent on humans in some way, that still doesn't mean the whole family of species is at risk. Similarly, with pigeons, those species that are mostly confined to urban environments may be at risk, but there are many species of pigeon and the more wild species would probably endure. You clearly mistook what I meant about cockroaches and pigeons. I was referring to the cockroaches in temperate North America and Europe. The only reason they have succeeded in the cities is because of humans. Once the cities disappear these temperate cockroaches will have to adapt or go extinct. When I said pigeons, I meant feral rock pigeons. These pigeon populations will surely decline without humans keeping them full of bread crumbs. And dogs, if they are to survive and produce new species, will most likely return to the ancestral wolf/early dog phenotype. Many breeds are too far bred to survive in any future scenario. Chows, huskies, etc. are the kind of animals that will survive in a post-human scenario, but any resemblance to the thousands of years of human breeding will surely be minimal.
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Ànraich	Jun 9 2008, 04:10 PM Post #19
L'évolution Spéculative est moi Posts: 9,258 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: May 27, 2008	Wait I think Paralith may have some kind of a point. Many large dogs (especially German Shepards) will survive, given that they can form packs and such. But that's not what I'm getting at. The small toy dogs, I think they might survive as well. Think about it, someday they may be able to fill the niche (or a similar niche) of rabbits and other small mammals. And cockroaches will survive. They can eat anything that is (or once was) organic. Literally. Dead animals, cardboard, plants, wood, wire insulation, plastic; they can survive on all of it. Edited by Ànraich, Jun 9 2008, 04:10 PM.
	We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself


Livyatan	Jun 9 2008, 04:15 PM Post #20
Posts: 1,998 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 24, 2008 Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: "Knowledge never springs from faith. It springs from doubt." - Humayun Azad Nationality: American	Parasky Jun 9 2008, 04:10 PM And cockroaches will survive. They can eat anything that is (or once was) organic. Literally. Dead animals, cardboard, plants, wood, wire insulation, plastic; they can survive on all of it. Food isn't the problem; it's the temperature. Cockroaches are tropical species. Have you ever noticed how they all come inside during the winter? They can't survive the cold winter climates of temperate NA and Eurasia. Toy dogs would still be in heated competition with foxes, badgers, etc. They couldn't possibly survive against those animals who are both adaptable and strong competitors to new niche-takers. I will admit that large dogs could survive; but as is common for animals that return to feral habits; the descendants of feral dogs will look very much like wolves. The same for feral pigs that return to boar-like habits and just about all domesticated plantlife that return to the wild.
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Carlos	Jun 9 2008, 04:19 PM Post #21
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	Yes, if dogs survive they will become like wolves, specially if they interbreed with them, which is very likely to happen. Although I used to imagine water loving breeds like Labradors becoming like whales
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Livyatan	Jun 9 2008, 04:20 PM Post #22
Posts: 1,998 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 24, 2008 Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: "Knowledge never springs from faith. It springs from doubt." - Humayun Azad Nationality: American	JohnFaa Jun 9 2008, 04:19 PM Yes, if dogs survive they will become like wolves, specially if they interbreed with them, which is very likely to happen. Although I used to imagine water loving breeds like Labradors becoming like whales Maybe not whales, but more like canid versions of Mesonyx and Andrewsarchus.
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Carlos	Jun 9 2008, 04:24 PM Post #23
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	I meant evolving to become like whales
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Livyatan	Jun 9 2008, 04:27 PM Post #24
Posts: 1,998 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 24, 2008 Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: "Knowledge never springs from faith. It springs from doubt." - Humayun Azad Nationality: American	JohnFaa Jun 9 2008, 04:24 PM I meant evolving to become like whales I know you did. I was suggesting that might be going too far. I think that Mesonychid-like dogs are much more plausible. Plus, seals are much more likely to replace whales than dogs.
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Carlos	Jun 9 2008, 04:29 PM Post #25
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	Unless seals die... But I think they would be perfect canine versions of Ambulocetus
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Ànraich	Jun 9 2008, 05:05 PM Post #26
L'évolution Spéculative est moi Posts: 9,258 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: May 27, 2008	I disagree with your statements. The toy dog has one thing going for it; it's still a dog. Badgers, foxes, ect. are all individual hunters. Toy dogs will form packs, possibly very large packs. I don't think even a badger could defeat 25 chihuahuas.
	We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself


Carlos	Jun 9 2008, 05:07 PM Post #27
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	But I don't think that dogs "mimados" like that could live alone (what I mean is that they are too dependent on people to take care of them)
	Lemuria: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/ Terra Alternativa: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/ My Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Carliro


Livyatan	Jun 9 2008, 05:08 PM Post #28
Posts: 1,998 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: May 24, 2008 Area of expertise: Future Evolution Favorite Quote: "Knowledge never springs from faith. It springs from doubt." - Humayun Azad Nationality: American	Parasky Jun 9 2008, 05:05 PM I disagree with your statements. The toy dog has one thing going for it; it's still a dog. Badgers, foxes, ect. are all individual hunters. Toy dogs will form packs, possibly very large packs. I don't think even a badger could defeat 25 chihuahuas. Perhaps toy dogs could fit more of a niche similar to the South American bush dog? They live in large packs and are relatively small canines.
	The grand Livyatan on deviantArt: link


Ànraich	Jun 9 2008, 07:09 PM Post #29
L'évolution Spéculative est moi Posts: 9,258 Group: Admin Member #2 Joined: May 27, 2008	I imagine most toy dogs would die out, but I think at least some species would survive.
	We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself


Saxophlutist	Jun 9 2008, 07:25 PM Post #30
Adult Posts: 727 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: May 31, 2008	Yeah, I imagine that smaller dogs would be better off in bush lands, grasslands, or someplace they can run around in under protection, like other small bush animals. The larger dogs would definately survive better up north and possibly re-integrate with wolves.



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