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Ark creationist exhibition
Topic Started: Jul 10 2016, 06:03 AM (1,833 Views)
Dragon
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You're right, I should have said intelligence there. I've edited it to reflect that.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life," John 3:16

A neat pixel animation of a future cowboy


trex841
 
Hey, their right to get freaky ends when it goes up my nose.


I think this describes what dinosaurs are like now

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Kamidio
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Now I can pull out a Jenga block from the bottom of your argument - actually, yes, certain ideologies can be tied to stupidity.

Climate change denial, creationism, anti-globalization come from from a lack of information or a refusal to acknowledge facts(this second one is arguably a more potent form of willing stupidity).

Most socially conservative policies come from self-imposed stupidity that derives from greed and fear, that in turn power belief, which they use to refute facts, so they never learn, which fuels their greed and fear, and so on.

It's the reason why someone can claim refugees and immigrants are dangerous when the only historical evidence to back this up comes from European colonialism.

It the reason that many refuse to help the impoverished because of the lie of 'hard work will do anything and social security only feeds the lazy people'.

It's the reason why climate change denial is rampant, even when we're on the edge of the cliff and we're not going to be able to stand there much longer before the ground gives way. A societal plugging of the ears and a refusal to learn about the complicated effects of human industry.

It's the reason why creationism exists, because of a closed-minded refusal to accept something which has mountains of evidence to support it - ranging from a vast fossil record that while incomplete sufficiently showcases the connections of nearly every living thing on Earth to their most recent common ancestor, to the species that are evolving right before our eyes through various means, like the London Underground Mosquito to the fox domestication experiments in Russia to the species which are regularly bred for a wide variety of mutations - in favor of a single horribly mistranslated book about a Jewish zombie who could transmute matter and kill a fig tree by pointing at it.


Intelligent people do not look at mountains of evidence, go "No sir, I don't like it." and then try to use arguments in favor of their views which are easily crushed into dust by the evidence in favor of the truthful view point.

Intelligent people look at mountains of evidence and go "Alright, but could you clarify this part? How does this work?"

Only an idiot wishes for societal and ideological stagnation.
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Niedfaru
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Forbidden3
Jul 10 2016, 05:14 PM
Then you get fringes like the communists and neo-nazis who complain about everyone.


The very fact the communism is considered a fringe similar to fascism is testament to the fact that no-one has ever actually done it right. Not on a large scale anyway. Also, it's a bad term, because several social ideologies that involve a move away from money as the primary organising force can be termed as default "communism" simply because there is nothing better to call them, but have as little to do with Stalin as George W. Bush does. I have friends that are communists, and are actually some of the nicest people I've ever met. They will always help you with anything you need, and never have an excuse as to why they can't. If they can't afford the time or the money, they'll find some other way to help, like introducing you to a friend who can afford to help, or some such. They're not even aggressive with their politics. They will talk at great length, about the issue of you ask, but they don't complain without invitation, or go on huge rants and attack people's views. Honestly, their politics is friendlier than what goes on in most offices, and definitely nicer than Westminster/Washington/insert-establishment-here.

The same is true of my anarchist friends. They tend to be lot more vocal about their views, but they arrange a time and place for you to go listen if you want to. Their protests are all planned and co-ordinated: if you speak to them, they will tell you straight up what's going on, and you can choose to watch, take part, ignore, or be somewhere else as you like. The guy who leads them is also the absolutely nicest guy, hands down, I have ever met in my whole life. He's been imprisoned on charges of assaulting a police officer, which shocked everyone who knows him because he's not that kind of person. When he gets angry, he doesn't get violent, he gets intelligent. He fights with words, and fairly unassuming ones at that. Unsurprisingly, when the CCTV footage was reviewed, the judge threw the case out. In fact, this was the 5th time he's been imprisoned on what later turned out to be unfounded charges. His solicitor has told him that it's politically motivated. If the cops in a an area know who he is, they will find a reason to lock him up. But he's never done anything to incite it beyond exercising his legal right to protest (which, believe me, he knows what that right entails a lot better than anyone that doesn't spend most of their life exercising it.)

So yeah, don't imagine that political ideologies tell you anything about a person's personality traits. Usually this is nothing more than confirmation bias. I'm sure out there somewhere there's a pleasant unassuming neo-Nazi. I've never met one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Kamineigh
Jul 10 2016, 09:51 PM
Just gonna drop this little tidbit on you - Intelligence is not synonymous with knowing a lot of things.


This. Absolutely this. Knowledge=/=intelligence.

However, it's not really a distinction that matter at all the Dragon's argument, which I also agree with. Intelligent people hold all kinds of beliefs.

EDIT: Wow, ok, so I missed that post. I think you're missing the point that people can be intelligent in certain areas of life and apparently not in others. I'm a very intelligent linguist. I'm not so good with numbers. I'm absolutely awful with remembering dances. All these things require intelligence, yet I can more easily apply my intelligence to some than others. Equally you can have a very intelligent Doctor of "insert science" with no understanding of economics, and therefore they are easily able to hold what an economist might see as ignorant views. Or vice versa.

People have a limited amount of brain space to absorb information. If they don't have the data to alter their views, they are unlikely to every change them. And when they get presented with data that might conflict with their views, they might simply not have the energy to absorb it properly right now.

Furthermore, inciting the belief that your political opponents are stupid will never help you solve the the issues, and frequently has disastrous results. Every pro-Brexit voter I've spoken to voted that way largely because they were fed up with being called stupid with regard to their social beliefs. All they wanted was for someone to talk to them openly and honestly about the issues they had raised. Yes, I think they made the worst decision in recent British history. But that doesn't change the fact that they aren't stupid, as much as I angrily want to believe they are.

Edited by Niedfaru, Jul 10 2016, 10:30 PM.
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Dragon
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Kamineigh
Jul 10 2016, 10:14 PM
Now I can pull out a Jenga block from the bottom of your argument - actually, yes, certain ideologies can be tied to stupidity.

Climate change denial, creationism, anti-globalization come from from a lack of information or a refusal to acknowledge facts(this second one is arguably a more potent form of willing stupidity).

Most socially conservative policies come from self-imposed stupidity that derives from greed and fear, that in turn power belief, which they use to refute facts, so they never learn, which fuels their greed and fear, and so on.

It's the reason why someone can claim refugees and immigrants are dangerous when the only historical evidence to back this up comes from European colonialism.

It the reason that many refuse to help the impoverished because of the lie of 'hard work will do anything and social security only feeds the lazy people'.

It's the reason why climate change denial is rampant, even when we're on the edge of the cliff and we're not going to be able to stand there much longer before the ground gives way. A societal plugging of the ears and a refusal to learn about the complicated effects of human industry.

It's the reason why creationism exists, because of a closed-minded refusal to accept something which has mountains of evidence to support it - ranging from a vast fossil record that while incomplete sufficiently showcases the connections of nearly every living thing on Earth to their most recent common ancestor, to the species that are evolving right before our eyes through various means, like the London Underground Mosquito to the fox domestication experiments in Russia to the species which are regularly bred for a wide variety of mutations - in favor of a single horribly mistranslated book about a Jewish zombie who could transmute matter and kill a fig tree by pointing at it.


Intelligent people do not look at mountains of evidence, go "No sir, I don't like it." and then try to use arguments in favor of their views which are easily crushed into dust by the evidence in favor of the truthful view point.

Intelligent people look at mountains of evidence and go "Alright, but could you clarify this part? How does this work?"

Only an idiot wishes for societal and ideological stagnation.
None of this doesn't changes my original point.

My original point was that smart people can hold views that are pretty stupid and still be otherwise intelligent people. I do agree with you that most of those are stupid; however, we do need to acknowledge that the people holding stupid views like most of what you've said here can be smart; intelligence is a huge and complicated concept, and ever single person on earth is intelligent in some areas and dumb in others. If you dismiss someone who, say, denies climate change as an idiot and tell them that, they aren't likely to listen to you, and you won't be able to change their opinion on the matter. Dismissing these people as stupid is arguably pretty dangerous, since they won't like you, and they won't listen to you; this is where things get dangerous. These intelligent people, angered by their opponents talking down at them, can and do find ways to convince people of their rather dumb points of view. It's why young earth creationism is so prevalent in the US in spite of the piles of evidence for evolution and in spite of the fact that evolution doesn't on it's own go against most religious beliefs. If we want to do anything about this stuff, we need to acknowledge the fact that most of these people aren't actually complete idiots. That way, they might actually be willing to listen to us.

I don't think I'll say anything else on the matter, since these types of discussions can and have gone sour on this site before.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life," John 3:16

A neat pixel animation of a future cowboy


trex841
 
Hey, their right to get freaky ends when it goes up my nose.


I think this describes what dinosaurs are like now

Click for something good. Click this too.
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Kamidio
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Niedfaru
Jul 10 2016, 10:19 PM
I'm sure out there somewhere there's a pleasant unassuming neo-Nazi. I've never met one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Literally impossible. A Nazi is incapable of being pleasant. Racism is always repulsive and disgusting.

Unassuming is possible - evil thrives when it isn't easily noticed.
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This is really interesting, featherless tyrannosaurus annoys me (more than the raptors for some reason) but I respect that they took the time to do this.
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Would a been quicker if it was just some guy and his family in the middle of nowhere.
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On the museum models I find it interesting they included generally less well known prehistoric creatures such as Anisodon, Pakicetus and Simosuchus.
It suggests some of these people are reasonably intelligent, as they can do enough research to learn of these creatures' existence. If only they could have taken the next step and also learned more accurate knowledge about what these creatures were like and about the history of the Earth. But alas, all that effort is going into making stuff that will teach people demonstrable falsehoods.
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Literally impossible. A Nazi is incapable of being pleasant. Racism is always repulsive and disgusting.
I feel pleasant is the wrong term here. A person who's prettymuch a total jerk could still be pleasant to the right people at the right time; a racist would actually be fit for this. If I had a conversation with a racist on a subject where race was never brought up, and only ethnicities he had nothing against were involved in the conversation, I could have a pleasant conversation time with someone I don't have any amount of respect for.

Additionally, if someone was racist but not at all vocal or external about their racism, mostly keeping it to themselves, I'd, once again, probably dislike and lack respect for them, but finding them repulsive and disgusting is probably a strong term.

Honestly I'm conflicted about that post of yours in general, since I almost feel I agree and disagree with it at the same time.
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Niedfaru
Jul 10 2016, 10:19 PM
Furthermore, inciting the belief that your political opponents are stupid will never help you solve the the issues, and frequently has disastrous results. Every pro-Brexit voter I've spoken to voted that way largely because they were fed up with being called stupid with regard to their social beliefs. All they wanted was for someone to talk to them openly and honestly about the issues they had raised. Yes, I think they made the worst decision in recent British history. But that doesn't change the fact that they aren't stupid, as much as I angrily want to believe they are.


So essentially they're petty and selfish.
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Ok it's perfectly possible for someone to be outwardly pleasant and hold unpleasant beliefs. If they never reveal them to you then you won't know to find them 'repulsive'. Also lots of people are racist or sexist or whatever, through ignorance or unfortunate cultural differences rather than choosing to hold those opinions for kicks. They aren't necessarily repulsive people, they could very well change. You don't have to like them or try to be friends or spare their feelings or provide a free education service but forcing people into defence when they just don't quite realise what's wrong is not a good way to change their minds. Which is the ideal outcome.

Ofc some people are awful and revel in their nasty worldviews, so screw them.
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Sweet Raptor Jesus, those cages don't look big enough at all for those things.
Also, just a thought: has any creationist put into consideration how all of those animals were to get to the Ark? A sloth or a koala's going to have a damn hard time getting to the Middle East.
Also, what about animals that need specific conditions to survive, like frogs or polar bears? How the hell would a several-hundred-year-old man living in the middle of the desert conceivably care for these animals?
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I think most people here suffer from a severe case of Neutrality Fallacy. Sure, not being an extremist that hunts down everything on the minimal amount of sociopolitical disagreement is good, but neither is complacency.
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As Parasky once said somewhere in the depths of these forums: "I don't judge people based on their opinions. Rather, I do so based on their actions." I had two highschool friends who are best pals. One of them is a socialist (like me) and the other is a liberal. People CAN get along.

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there is no one ideology that is correlated with intelligence or stupidity.


You only say that due to the fact you don't know Anarcocapitalist Stalinism. That one's just for smart people. They defend the rights of the poor elites, which are oppressed by the bourgeois masses.

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