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Naturalism vs Post-naturalism
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Topic Started: Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM (4,217 Views)
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HangingThief
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Apr 14 2016, 08:49 PM
Post #121
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- Kamineigh
- Apr 14 2016, 08:28 PM
Look, if you truly believe that system is better, sell all of your belongings, including your clothes, and move to Ethiopia. We'll see which one of us dies in the middle of nowhere from starvation/exposure/thirst/dysentery. Don't you get it? That's not an option anymore. Farming literally ruined the chances of anyone living happily and independently.
Also, cave men definitely did not die of exposure and dysentery. Unlike us pale, sickly farmers that have bred for ages and ages with little to no natural selection, they were tough. They could survive and thrive like wild animals, which they were. We basically domesticated ourselves into the disgraceful, shriveled shells of humanity we are today.
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Hey.
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LittleLazyLass
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Apr 14 2016, 08:51 PM
Post #122
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- Quote:
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We basically domesticated ourselves into the disgraceful, shriveled shells of humanity we are today. Wow, that's a downer sentence if I've ever seen one.
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
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It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
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Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
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Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
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Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
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"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
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Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
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Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
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Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
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And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
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Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
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SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
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The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
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I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
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When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
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All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
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Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
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Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
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We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
-
For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
-
im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
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He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
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Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
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Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
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You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
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HangingThief
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Apr 14 2016, 08:52 PM
Post #123
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- Kamineigh
- Apr 14 2016, 08:42 PM
No it isn't. Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics, let alone corporations, let alone politics and corporations that control and exploit millions of people.
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Hey.
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HangingThief
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Apr 14 2016, 08:53 PM
Post #124
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- Jurassic Zebra
- Apr 14 2016, 08:51 PM
- Quote:
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We basically domesticated ourselves into the disgraceful, shriveled shells of humanity we are today.
Wow, that's a downer sentence if I've ever seen one. But it's truu-hoo...
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Hey.
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Scrublord
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Apr 14 2016, 08:59 PM
Post #125
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We didn't "degenerate". We evolved. There have been scientific studies showing that (for example) the modern human digestive system is subtly different than that of a human 50,000 years ago. That is natural selection.
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My Projects: The Neozoic Redux Valhalla--Take Three! The Big One
Deviantart Account: http://elsqiubbonator.deviantart.com
In the end, the best advice I could give you would be to do your project in a way that feels natural to you, rather than trying to imitate some geek with a laptop in Colorado. --Heteromorph
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LittleLazyLass
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Apr 14 2016, 09:05 PM
Post #126
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Proud quilt in a bag
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- Scrublord
- Apr 14 2016, 08:59 PM
We didn't "degenerate". We evolved. There have been scientific studies showing that (for example) the modern human digestive system is subtly different than that of a human 50,000 years ago. That is natural selection. Whether we're still evolving or not, it's no longer natural selection.
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
-
It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
-
Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
-
Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
-
Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
-
"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
-
Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
-
Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
-
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
-
The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
-
When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
-
All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
-
Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
-
Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
-
We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
-
For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
-
im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
-
He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
-
Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
-
Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
-
You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
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Scrublord
|
Apr 14 2016, 09:10 PM
Post #127
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- Life can seem a challenge. Life can seem impossible. It's never easy when there's so much on the line.
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All right, all right. Can I just get a brief summary of what all the other big participants in this thread actually think?
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My Projects: The Neozoic Redux Valhalla--Take Three! The Big One
Deviantart Account: http://elsqiubbonator.deviantart.com
In the end, the best advice I could give you would be to do your project in a way that feels natural to you, rather than trying to imitate some geek with a laptop in Colorado. --Heteromorph
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Kamidio
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Apr 14 2016, 09:12 PM
Post #128
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The Game Master of the SSU:NC
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- HangingThief
- Apr 14 2016, 08:49 PM
- Kamineigh
- Apr 14 2016, 08:28 PM
Look, if you truly believe that system is better, sell all of your belongings, including your clothes, and move to Ethiopia. We'll see which one of us dies in the middle of nowhere from starvation/exposure/thirst/dysentery.
Don't you get it? That's not an option anymore. Farming literally ruined the chances of anyone living happily and independently. Also, cave men definitely did not die of exposure and dysentery. Unlike us pale, sickly farmers that have bred for ages and ages with little to no natural selection, they were tough. They could survive and thrive like wild animals, which they were. We basically domesticated ourselves into the disgraceful, shriveled shells of humanity we are today. Mmhmm. And vaccines cause autism, GMOs are poisoning our food, yada yada yada.
I swear to god, I've never come face-to-face with someone using actual strawman arguments, but here it is.
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SSU:NC - Finding a new home.
Quotes - Steve Irwin
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I have no fear of losing my life - if I have to save a koala or a crocodile or a kangaroo or a snake, mate, I will save it.
- Satoru Iwata - Heart of a Gamer
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Even if we come from different sides of the world, speak different languages, even if we eat too many chips or rice balls, even if we wave different tastes in games, every one of us here today is identical in the most important way: each one of us was the heart of a gamer.
- The Writing on the Wall
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You should not have come here. This is not a place of honor. No great deed is commemorated here. Nothing of value is here. What is here is dangerous and repulsive.
- Parasky | 2015
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You can't be 100% certain Barack Obama is currently the US president, or that the nation of Canada even exists.
- Dan Avidan
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See, what I like to do now as an adult is take all that anger and frustration and push it down deep inside of me, until it becomes a seething white core of pure hate.
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Follow your stupid fuckin' dreams.
WAA
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HangingThief
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Apr 14 2016, 09:28 PM
Post #129
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- Kamineigh
- Apr 14 2016, 09:12 PM
- HangingThief
- Apr 14 2016, 08:49 PM
- Kamineigh
- Apr 14 2016, 08:28 PM
Look, if you truly believe that system is better, sell all of your belongings, including your clothes, and move to Ethiopia. We'll see which one of us dies in the middle of nowhere from starvation/exposure/thirst/dysentery.
Don't you get it? That's not an option anymore. Farming literally ruined the chances of anyone living happily and independently. Also, cave men definitely did not die of exposure and dysentery. Unlike us pale, sickly farmers that have bred for ages and ages with little to no natural selection, they were tough. They could survive and thrive like wild animals, which they were. We basically domesticated ourselves into the disgraceful, shriveled shells of humanity we are today.
Mmhmm. And vaccines cause autism, GMOs are poisoning our food, yada yada yada. I swear to god, I've never come face-to-face with someone using actual strawman arguments, but here it is. How is it a strawman argument? You're saying it's not true that humans have weaker genes and are less hardy than our ancestors? We're like those guppies that get bred in pristine, filtered aquariums for too long until the slightest bit of nitrogen in the water makes them drop dead.
I don't see how that's similar to anti- vaxxers and GMO freaks at all. It's just an obvious fact that humans have become accustomed to our protected, luxurious (if not easy or happy) lives in more ways than one.
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Hey.
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LittleLazyLass
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Apr 14 2016, 09:31 PM
Post #130
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Proud quilt in a bag
- Posts:
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- Sorry, but why do you want to know aboot my nationality, eh? Uh... sorry, that was rude of me. Sorry.
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- "you know you're a nerd when you search Wookieepedia for porn"
- Also known as:
- You can call me Little; full list of old names found through profile.
- Gender:
- Trans Questioning (see link in sig; feminine pronouns)
|
If we are, it's because we don't need it anymore.
|
totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
-
It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
-
Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
-
Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
-
Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
-
"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
-
Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
-
Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
-
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
-
The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
-
When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
-
All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
-
Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
-
Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
-
We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
-
For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
-
im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
-
He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
-
Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
-
Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
-
You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
Stuff
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Sheather
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Apr 14 2016, 09:33 PM
Post #131
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HangingThief isn't wrong, but nothing is quite so black and white. As a whole people before the modern era would have been hardier than us... because all of the people who weren't just died. Modern humans are less healthy, but we don't all die from an infected splinter anymore. Hunter gatherers probably did have a lot more time than many working people - spend a few hours hunting one animal, be good for most of the week... but again, compromises. Sometimes there might be a drought and no buffalo and all of your children die of starvation before the rains return. That doesn't happen when you can go to the store and buy a sandwich for $1.
I don't think human beings have an absolute obligation to preserve their planet's natural environment, but I would - as someone who finds it interesting and aesthetically pleasing - hope we would try to keep at least a bit of it around, if only because once it's gone, it's gone, and we might miss it one day.
Ecosystems change constantly, as I've said before I think it's totally futile to try and even think it's possible to keep the planet as it was 20,000 years ago. Whether we evolved or not, climate changes would eventually occur and charismatic big animals would die out for some reason or another, it's just the natural process; they're the first to go in any extinction event, be it a meteor or man. Climate change is a big issue today, but it won't kill humans or even most animals, statistically. The planet's current cold climate is the abnormal situation in the planet's history and life will adapt again to a warmer world, humans will gradually move their cities inland, and more severe weather will become the new normal.
I personally think we should make an effort to lessen our negative impact on the environment, but my opinion is arbitrary. We don't need most animal species or very much forest to do well as a species, but as someone fond of nature, it is a little sad that our success has to come at the expense of so much of the planet's natural splendor. Even though the elephants and the panda and the tiger are probably all evolutionary dead-ends sooner or later anyway, I think we should make a little effort to keep them around, if only because we find them interesting. Though they could be replaced in an instant by natural evolutionary processes, none of us will live long enough to see that happen if we kill them all of now. It's a selfish ideology for sure, but I think we should preserve as much of the natural world as we can just because it's pretty. It's amazing that it all exists and it would be a shame to see it all go away.
~~~
My views on invasives depend on the situation. If they don't cause significant harm to anything, like German rheas and British wallabies, don't worry over them. They're novel, fun to see, and more or less harmless. They don't kill endemic animals or outcompete them, that we can discern. They just sort of slip into the ecology. Not every introduced animal is problematic, if it comes from a similar type of environment in nature than it usually finds its old niche easily even a world apart.
If they're destructive to some native animal which is not as common however, like goats and tortoises, and their population is still small enough to potentially be able to kill off - as that of the Galapagos goats theoretically is - by all means make an effort to kill them off. Make one big, orchestrated effort one time and kill every single one of them. But if there are literal millions of that invasives over an area that is too large to ever cleanse of them, like the starlings and the house sparrow, you really need to accept it as a loss. Killing a few here and there does nothing but prolong the inevitable. Accept that we've changed the environment and move on. It's happened before more times than we could ever keep track of, we've just sped up the process.
~~~
In the end, I don't abide by either ideology, Squibbonator. They're both inherently flawed. The situation is much more complicated than either "humans are morally obligated to preserve their world" or "humans are nature; ergo their alteration of the environment is always acceptable." Humans shouldn't be obligated to save the guinea worm but it's also really shitty of us as a species if we truly don't have a problem poisoning all the elephants to cut off their teeth for novelty trinkets just because we can.
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 The Gaiaverse
| Eden | Terra Metropolis | Life of the Sylvan Islands |
Other Spec Evo
| Sheatheria | Serina | The Last Dinosaur
A Wholesome and Good Thing
| Sam |
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HangingThief
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Apr 14 2016, 09:35 PM
Post #132
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- Jurassic Zebra
- Apr 14 2016, 09:05 PM
- Scrublord
- Apr 14 2016, 08:59 PM
We didn't "degenerate". We evolved. There have been scientific studies showing that (for example) the modern human digestive system is subtly different than that of a human 50,000 years ago. That is natural selection.
Whether we're still evolving or not, it's no longer natural selection. And we're definitely not becoming more resistant to dysentery.
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Hey.
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Scrublord
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Apr 14 2016, 09:42 PM
Post #133
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- Sheather
- Apr 14 2016, 09:33 PM
HangingThief isn't wrong, but nothing is quite so black and white. As a whole people before the modern era would have been hardier than us... because all of the people who weren't just died. Modern humans are less healthy, but we don't all die from an infected splinter anymore. Hunter gatherers probably did have a lot more time than many working people - spend a few hours hunting one animal, be good for most of the week... but again, compromises. Sometimes there might be a drought and no buffalo and all of your children die of starvation before the rains return. That doesn't happen when you can go to the store and buy a sandwich for $1.
I don't think human beings have an absolute obligation to preserve their planet's natural environment, but I would - as someone who finds it interesting and aesthetically pleasing - hope we would try to keep at least a bit of it around, if only because once it's gone, it's gone, and we might miss it one day.
Ecosystems change constantly, as I've said before I think it's totally futile to try and even think it's possible to keep the planet as it was 20,000 years ago. Whether we evolved or not, climate changes would eventually occur and charismatic big animals would die out for some reason or another, it's just the natural process; they're the first to go in any extinction event, be it a meteor or man. Climate change is a big issue today, but it won't kill humans or even most animals, statistically. The planet's current cold climate is the abnormal situation in the planet's history and life will adapt again to a warmer world, humans will gradually move their cities inland, and more severe weather will become the new normal.
I personally think we should make an effort to lessen our negative impact on the environment, but my opinion is arbitrary. We don't need most animal species or very much forest to do well as a species, but as someone fond of nature, it is a little sad that our success has to come at the expense of so much of the planet's natural splendor. Even though the elephants and the panda and the tiger are probably all evolutionary dead-ends sooner or later anyway, I think we should make a little effort to keep them around, if only because we find them interesting. Though they could be replaced in an instant by natural evolutionary processes, none of us will live long enough to see that happen if we kill them all of now. It's a selfish ideology for sure, but I think we should preserve as much of the natural world as we can just because it's pretty. It's amazing that it all exists and it would be a shame to see it all go away.
~~~
My views on invasives depend on the situation. If they don't cause significant harm to anything, like German rheas and British wallabies, don't worry over them. They're novel, fun to see, and more or less harmless. They don't kill endemic animals or outcompete them, that we can discern. They just sort of slip into the ecology. Not every introduced animal is problematic, if it comes from a similar type of environment in nature than it usually finds its old niche easily even a world apart.
If they're destructive to some native animal which is not as common however, like goats and tortoises, and their population is still small enough to potentially be able to kill off - as that of the Galapagos goats theoretically is - by all means make an effort to kill them off. Make one big, orchestrated effort one time and kill every single one of them. But if there are literal millions of that invasives over an area that is too large to ever cleanse of them, like the starlings and the house sparrow, you really need to accept it as a loss. Killing a few here and there does nothing but prolong the inevitable. Accept that we've changed the environment and move on. It's happened before more times than we could ever keep track of, we've just sped up the process.
~~~
In the end, I don't abide by either ideology, Squibbonator. They're both inherently flawed. The situation is much more complicated than either "humans are morally obligated to preserve their world" or "humans are nature; ergo their alteration of the environment is always acceptable." Humans shouldn't be obligated to save the guinea worm but it's also really shitty of us as a species if we truly don't have a problem poisoning all the elephants to cut off their teeth for novelty trinkets just because we can.
That's probably the most well-balanced and nuanced reply to the original question that I've seen yet in this entire thread.
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My Projects: The Neozoic Redux Valhalla--Take Three! The Big One
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In the end, the best advice I could give you would be to do your project in a way that feels natural to you, rather than trying to imitate some geek with a laptop in Colorado. --Heteromorph
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HangingThief
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Apr 14 2016, 09:49 PM
Post #134
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- Sheather
- Apr 14 2016, 09:33 PM
HangingThief isn't wrong, but nothing is quite so black and white. As a whole people before the modern era would have been hardier than us... because all of the people who weren't just died. Modern humans are less healthy, but we don't all die from an infected splinter anymore. Hunter gatherers probably did have a lot more time than many working people - spend a few hours hunting one animal, be good for most of the week... but again, compromises. Sometimes there might be a drought and no buffalo and all of your children die of starvation before the rains return. That doesn't happen when you can go to the store and buy a sandwich for $1.
I don't think human beings have an absolute obligation to preserve their planet's natural environment, but I would - as someone who finds it interesting and aesthetically pleasing - hope we would try to keep at least a bit of it around, if only because once it's gone, it's gone, and we might miss it one day.
Ecosystems change constantly, as I've said before I think it's totally futile to try and even think it's possible to keep the planet as it was 20,000 years ago. Whether we evolved or not, climate changes would eventually occur and charismatic big animals would die out for some reason or another, it's just the natural process; they're the first to go in any extinction event, be it a meteor or man. Climate change is a big issue today, but it won't kill humans or even most animals, statistically. The planet's current cold climate is the abnormal situation in the planet's history and life will adapt again to a warmer world, humans will gradually move their cities inland, and more severe weather will become the new normal.
I personally think we should make an effort to lessen our negative impact on the environment, but my opinion is arbitrary. We don't need most animal species or very much forest to do well as a species, but as someone fond of nature, it is a little sad that our success has to come at the expense of so much of the planet's natural splendor. Even though the elephants and the panda and the tiger are probably all evolutionary dead-ends sooner or later anyway, I think we should make a little effort to keep them around, if only because we find them interesting. Though they could be replaced in an instant by natural evolutionary processes, none of us will live long enough to see that happen if we kill them all of now. It's a selfish ideology for sure, but I think we should preserve as much of the natural world as we can just because it's pretty. It's amazing that it all exists and it would be a shame to see it all go away.
~~~
My views on invasives depend on the situation. If they don't cause significant harm to anything, like German rheas and British wallabies, don't worry over them. They're novel, fun to see, and more or less harmless. They don't kill endemic animals or outcompete them, that we can discern. They just sort of slip into the ecology. Not every introduced animal is problematic, if it comes from a similar type of environment in nature than it usually finds its old niche easily even a world apart.
If they're destructive to some native animal which is not as common however, like goats and tortoises, and their population is still small enough to potentially be able to kill off - as that of the Galapagos goats theoretically is - by all means make an effort to kill them off. Make one big, orchestrated effort one time and kill every single one of them. But if there are literal millions of that invasives over an area that is too large to ever cleanse of them, like the starlings and the house sparrow, you really need to accept it as a loss. Killing a few here and there does nothing but prolong the inevitable. Accept that we've changed the environment and move on. It's happened before more times than we could ever keep track of, we've just sped up the process.
~~~
In the end, I don't abide by either ideology, Squibbonator. They're both inherently flawed. The situation is much more complicated than either "humans are morally obligated to preserve their world" or "humans are nature; ergo their alteration of the environment is always acceptable." Humans shouldn't be obligated to save the guinea worm but it's also really shitty of us as a species if we truly don't have a problem poisoning all the elephants to cut off their teeth for novelty trinkets just because we can.
I believe the most important part of this is that opinions are arbitrary. It's not like we can turn back and change things now. We're stuck with a post-natural society of suicidal super- farmers.
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Hey.
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Scrublord
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Apr 14 2016, 09:52 PM
Post #135
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I never denied that.
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My Projects: The Neozoic Redux Valhalla--Take Three! The Big One
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In the end, the best advice I could give you would be to do your project in a way that feels natural to you, rather than trying to imitate some geek with a laptop in Colorado. --Heteromorph
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