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Naturalism vs Post-naturalism
Topic Started: Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM (4,219 Views)
Kamidio
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Invasive species are nearly impossible to eradicate. Sad to say, but in the long run it'd be rather beneficial.

For example, in recent news, rhinos were being relocated to Australia because African poachers will never be able to afford to fly there. thus, the species is saved through relocation.

Now look at the Burmese Python. It's vulnerable, and despite this, the ones roaming around the Everglades are labelled 'invasive' and hunting is encouraged - despite the fact that they're a threatened species.

There is literally no difference between the two situations, except that one is being killed because it's a 'big scary snake' and not an 'ugly-cute' mammal.
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flashman63
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Kamineigh
Apr 14 2016, 06:41 PM
Wait wait wait. There are Komodo dragons in Oz? I knew about the Floridian monkeys, but Aussie death lizards? Tell me more.


It's been suggested as a replacement for the niche left empty by Megalania.

Scrublord
Apr 14 2016, 06:43 PM
So you think we shouldn't bother trying to wipe out invasive species, even when it's obvious that they're a problem?


No. Absolutely not. No more then I think the primitive primates who landed on Madagascar should have been exterminated. We are (or at least will be for the next few million years) the new method of biogeographical transmission, and I think that's bloody awesome. Kudzu and llamas in the Ozarks is just cool.
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A tale of love in the age of tyrannosaurs!

An epic from the silver screen, brought right to your door!

Travel back to
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LittleLazyLass
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Scrublord
Apr 14 2016, 06:43 PM
So you think we shouldn't bother trying to wipe out invasive species, even when it's obvious that they're a problem?
Well, if you're arguing there's a creative drive for conservation - yes. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to eradicate invasive species, of course we should, but his statements fall under yours.
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Scrublord
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flashman63
Apr 14 2016, 07:05 PM


No. Absolutely not. No more then I think the primitive primates who landed on Madagascar should have been exterminated. We are (or at least will be for the next few million years) the new method of biogeographical transmission, and I think that's bloody awesome. Kudzu and llamas in the Ozarks is just cool.


What if those invasive species threaten a species that we do legitimately want to see preserved?
Take the giant tortoises of the Galapagos islands, for example. Everybody loves them; they're practically mascots for evolution, conservation, and island tourism. But they're being threatened by invasive goats that eat the plants they eat. So at this point do we just throw our hands in the air and say "**** it", or do we do what we can to preserve the tortoises?

Also, as someone who lives in the South, I can say that kudzu is objectively not cool.
Edited by Scrublord, Apr 14 2016, 07:38 PM.
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flashman63
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Yes, in that case I would agree, but only because goats are boring- not any moral or objective reasoning. If it was, like, orangutans that were killing the tortoises, I'd probably just shrug my arms.
Travel back through time and space, to the edge of man's beggining... discover a time when man, woman and lizard roamed free, and untamed!

It is an epoch of mammoths, a time of raptors!

A tale of love in the age of tyrannosaurs!

An epic from the silver screen, brought right to your door!

Travel back to
A Million Years BC

-----------------------------------------------------

Proceedings of the Miskatonic University Department of Zoology

Cosmic Horror is but a dissertation away

-----------------------------------------------------

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LittleLazyLass
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I'll admit, I do feel moral obligation to save them, and eradicate the invasive species; but I can't justify it.
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Scrublord
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Same with the mosquitoes that threaten the Hawaiian honeycreepers, then? Honeycreepers are cool and rare, mosquitoes are annoying and common. (I. . .think I'm beginning to grasp your logic)
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flashman63
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Yes. I would eradicate Mosquitoes- but I would not eradicate mustelids or warthogs.
Travel back through time and space, to the edge of man's beggining... discover a time when man, woman and lizard roamed free, and untamed!

It is an epoch of mammoths, a time of raptors!

A tale of love in the age of tyrannosaurs!

An epic from the silver screen, brought right to your door!

Travel back to
A Million Years BC

-----------------------------------------------------

Proceedings of the Miskatonic University Department of Zoology

Cosmic Horror is but a dissertation away

-----------------------------------------------------

Some dickhead's deviantART
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Kamidio
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Not to mention mosquitoes are pests in general. The world in general would benefit from total mosquito eradication.
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Scrublord
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You know, I think way back when we had a "least favorite animal" thread. Mosquitoes were my choice. That could cause. . . issues. Remember, "for want of a nail, the kingdom was lost."
Edited by Scrublord, Apr 14 2016, 07:49 PM.
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flashman63
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Scrublord
Apr 14 2016, 07:46 PM
That could cause. . . issues. Remember, "for want of a nail, the kingdom was lost."
I wouldn't kill them all- they keep jungles impenetrable and mysterious. Though I guess my actually morality which does apply to people would compel me to kill all of them...

So yeah, kill all mosquitoes. Lets see what happens when we tip over a domino.
Travel back through time and space, to the edge of man's beggining... discover a time when man, woman and lizard roamed free, and untamed!

It is an epoch of mammoths, a time of raptors!

A tale of love in the age of tyrannosaurs!

An epic from the silver screen, brought right to your door!

Travel back to
A Million Years BC

-----------------------------------------------------

Proceedings of the Miskatonic University Department of Zoology

Cosmic Horror is but a dissertation away

-----------------------------------------------------

Some dickhead's deviantART
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
flashman63
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My view is essentially "The natural world exists for my amusement". Which probably makes me sound like a massive dick.
Travel back through time and space, to the edge of man's beggining... discover a time when man, woman and lizard roamed free, and untamed!

It is an epoch of mammoths, a time of raptors!

A tale of love in the age of tyrannosaurs!

An epic from the silver screen, brought right to your door!

Travel back to
A Million Years BC

-----------------------------------------------------

Proceedings of the Miskatonic University Department of Zoology

Cosmic Horror is but a dissertation away

-----------------------------------------------------

Some dickhead's deviantART
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scrublord
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Father Pellegrini
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Great, I've spent all this time debating with Mr. Mxyzptlk.
My Projects:
The Neozoic Redux
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The Big One



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In the end, the best advice I could give you would be to do your project in a way that feels natural to you, rather than trying to imitate some geek with a laptop in Colorado.
--Heteromorph
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flashman63
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All views on naturalism are arbitrary, so why not?
Travel back through time and space, to the edge of man's beggining... discover a time when man, woman and lizard roamed free, and untamed!

It is an epoch of mammoths, a time of raptors!

A tale of love in the age of tyrannosaurs!

An epic from the silver screen, brought right to your door!

Travel back to
A Million Years BC

-----------------------------------------------------

Proceedings of the Miskatonic University Department of Zoology

Cosmic Horror is but a dissertation away

-----------------------------------------------------

Some dickhead's deviantART
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HangingThief
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Scrublord
Apr 14 2016, 05:41 PM
HangingThief
Apr 14 2016, 05:32 PM
lamna
Apr 14 2016, 04:33 PM
If you're shopping around for reasons for the natural world, obviously we need a lot of it so we don't, you know, die.

But the unimportant stuff, like tigers and great Plains white fringed orchids. Because people enjoy them. Why do we have art? Why don't we just wear all the same utilitarian clothes? Why do people go to the cinema? Because it's pleasant.

I want my big water feature to have orca in it, and I want my rockery to have snow leopards.

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I dunno, human living standards will never be the same as they were for the original hunter gatherers. Farmers may have taken over because we can breed faster, but compared to even the modern city dwelling 'farmer' hunter- gatherers lived a life of health and ease. You won't see a stressed, diabetic hunter- gatherer who works ten hours a day, nor one who's starving to death among thousands of others in a desolate, ruined landscape.


Noble savage nonsense. Hunter gathers get stressed, they have to work hard, and sometimes they die of starvation. Some of them even have diabetes.

Many of them have access to nice stuff now, but that's only because they have contact with us fallen, downtrodden, ungodly farmers who have time to make condoms and smart phones and oil lamps.
I was talking about ancient/prehistoric hunter gatherer civilizations. Y'know, before the farmers showed up.
You're confusing 'noble savage' with the original affluent society theory. Despite common belief, life for early hunter gatherers wasn't a constant life or death struggle. They rarely starved, had access to a rich and varied diet, were physically fit and probably spent around fifteen hours a week at 'work'. Look at the artifacts they left behind, these people had time on their hands. They may not have been as "safe" as we are today, but at least their fight or flight response actually served its purpose rather than being bottled up and transformed into the poisonous substance we now know as stress.
Farmers may have overpowered hunter gatherers by sheer numbers, but farmers as a rule sacrifice quality for quantity. Compared to a hunter gatherer, a farmer was overworked, unhappy and unhealthy. And even today, most of humanitie's major problems can be traced back to too many people trying to milk everything they have for all it's worth. All wars are fought over shortages, amiright?

I suggest reading Guns, Germs and Steel if you haven't. (Before saying anything about modern medicine, the book explains why the farmer's lifestyle is the main reason we even need modern medicine.)
So are you saying the best thing to do is to get rid of everything meaningful accomplished over the past 10,000 years and go back to the caves?
I'm just saying that our lives aren't necessarily better than theirs were. Just because there's a lot of us, and we have all these new toys and complex political systems, doesn't mean that our civilization is better and people live fuller lives. Like I said we seem to prefer quantity over quality.
Hey.


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