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Naturalism vs Post-naturalism
Topic Started: Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM (4,223 Views)
Ànraich
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Rodlox
Apr 12 2016, 01:06 AM
Scrublord
Apr 11 2016, 10:49 PM
Dr. Legend
Apr 11 2016, 05:31 PM
What is "natural" exactly? When a herd of dinosaurs destroys an entire forest per day, that is natural. When humans do it, it is considered unnatural. Are humans not part of nature?

The way I see it, the difference is one of intent. A herd of sauropods or elephants cannot live as they are and do otherwise. But humans are different. We can change the way we live.
really? elephants can only live in one way?

so which ones are living incorrectly?
a) the forest elephants of Africa
b) the temperate forest elephants of China
c) the elephants of Namibia(sp)
d) the elephants of the veldt
e) the tropical rainforest elephants
All of them. The only true elephants are the Greek Orthodox Anatolian elephants.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Kamidio
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Maybe the true elephants were really just the friends we made on the way.
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Holben
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JohnFaa
Apr 11 2016, 08:57 PM
Why not let everything die?
We keep trying but those pesky microbes are too clever for us to beat, and we can't let them have Earth can we?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

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Ànraich
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Holben
Apr 12 2016, 01:55 AM
JohnFaa
Apr 11 2016, 08:57 PM
Why not let everything die?
We keep trying but those pesky microbes are too clever for us to beat, and we can't let them have Earth can we?
Well they did defeat the Martians. Funny how they had technology like space travel and heat rays, but not soap.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Scrublord
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Think we should move this topic to In-depth Discourse? (puts on hazmat suit) This could get ugly.

But I'd like to clear a something up.
When I used the example of elephants, I am quite aware that elephants live in multiple different habitats. However, an elephant living in a rainforest cannot decide to live on the savannah because it has become aware of the damage it has caused to the rainforest, any more than a flea can consciously choose not to cause misery to its host. Humans alone have the capacity to acknowledge when their lifestyles have become destructive to the ecosystems around them and change them accordingly.
Edited by Scrublord, Apr 12 2016, 11:28 AM.
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"Saving", "Immoral", "Natural", and "Unnatural" are all human concepts.
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Humans alone have the capacity to acknowledge when their lifestyles have become destructive to the ecosystems around them and change them accordingly.
But again, let's suppose that herd of elephants caused the same amount of damage as the humans. Does it make a different that we could stop it, when it has the exact same outcome? There a lot of things were the journey is more important than the outcome; but I'm not sure this is one of them.
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Niedfaru
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Of course it matters. You cannot ask someone to make a change they are incapable of making. But if they are capable of making it, then you can require them to make it.
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Niedfaru
Apr 12 2016, 02:30 PM
Of course it matters. You cannot ask someone to make a change they are incapable of making. But if they are capable of making it, then you can require them to make it.
And why would you ask them to make a change in the first place?
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Niedfaru
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That's a different question entirely. I was merely responding to the question of whether the ability to stop matters.
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LittleLazyLass
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Yes, but if you didn't stop, then did it matter? The forest wasn't effected in any sort of different way. We're specifically talking about the effect of this action on the environment, not anything else about that action.
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It matters the next time a forest is in danger. No events happen in isolation, nor can aspects of a choice be dealt with in isolation.
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LittleLazyLass
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But then you're just back to the start of the question. Once that second forest was destroyed, it still doesn't matter whether it was an elephant, a sauropod, a bug, or a sapient.
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Scrublord
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Yes it does. A herd of elephants cannot avoid destroying the forest in which they feed, because that is an inherent part of their nature as elephants. But a human landscape engineer can be reasoned with and convinced not to place a building in that same forest.
It is the same reason that we consider a hurricane or earthquake a "natural" disaster, but a bombing raid on a civilian city during wartime an atrocity.
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LittleLazyLass
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I'm supposing the forest does indeed get destroyed. The fact that it could've been avoided doesn't make any difference for the state of the forest.
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Scrublord
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So you're saying we shouldn't care about the environment? We should just let the Earth get trashed, because it's gotten trashed before?
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