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Naturalism vs Post-naturalism
Topic Started: Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM (4,215 Views)
Holben
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I think the opposition to invasive species isn't just because of the sense that they don't "belong", it's also because of the high-profile cases where they caused severe economic or ecological damage; think of the cane toad, brown tree snake, and capybara in the southern USA, as well as rats on pretty much every pacific island.

Philosophically, you can give precedence to 'holism' or 'individualism' in this area. Holism is the idea that ecosystems matter in their own right, whereas invidualism is about the moral importance of every individual. Most people sympathise with both but in invasive species management holism tends to be used as the explanation, whereas the view I think Flisch is putting forwards is highly individualist; we have the same moral obligation to a member of an invasive species as to a previously present one.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

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Monster
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Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics


I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.


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HangingThief
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Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
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Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics


I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.


Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?
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LittleLazyLass
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HangingThief
Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
Monster
Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
Quote:
 
Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?
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Perhaps they don't, but that wouldn't be the only thing it wouldn't lead to.
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Who knows, maybe we will all hit the sack in the end. But you know what? I think if we do, we'll have had a god-damn good run. Not the destination, but the journey! Can you tell me that there's nothing in those pictures that makes you appreciate all the way mankind has come? How much farther we're destined to go? Shoot not for just the sky, but to the moon! The stars! Infinity! Beyond!
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Scrublord
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Flisch
Apr 15 2016, 02:27 AM
Sheather
Apr 14 2016, 10:04 PM
Maybe the stoats on New Zealand will one day diversify into a strange and wondrous clade of new animals like the Madagascaran lemurs or Australia's wallabies, all because of us. To someone in the far future who'd find them, they wouldn't be invasive, but charismatic natives, just like we view the new world monkeys or really almost any animal that evolved somewhere else before moving to where it lives now, like horses, camels, and lions.
I wanted to mention this, but you beat me to it. It should be remembered that literally every species is an invasive one if you just go back far enough.

Also, for everyone who loves to play the moral card: Invasive species are most often brought to new environments by man nowadays. How would it be "morally" justifiable to wipe them out? How is their life worth less than that of indigenous species? Just some food for thought.


You want an answer? Try this one on for size.
Earlier, I compared the Earth in its present state to a garden--an artificial ecosystem, in other words--and humanity in its ability to transform the world around itself to a gardener. But a gardener does not merely stand by idly while his plants are afflicted by blight, or consumed by insects. He weeds, he sprays pesticides, he plants new plants to replace those that die. As the most intelligent species on the planet, capable of shaping its ecosystems to suit our fancy, we feel the need to preserve those species that seem interesting or special to us--not because it is our moral right, but because, just as a gardener would rather have flowers than weeds, we would rather have honeycreepers than mosquitoes.
Edited by Scrublord, Apr 15 2016, 11:06 AM.
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Sayornis
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From a pro-diversity (or aesthetic) standpoint it makes sense to at least fight invasive species that are threatening native species-- because the invaders generally have thriving populations in their native land, whereas the native species may not thrive elsewhere. To use an example I'm personally familiar with, I'd rather have bluebirds and starlings than just starlings. Maybe it's inevitable that the starlings will take over in the long run, but that doesn't mean that we as "gardeners" shouldn't make efforts to sustain the bluebirds while we can-- and the same goes for other invasive species.
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Aug 19 2016, 07:42 PM
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Scrublord
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That at least makes sense if, as you say, the invaders have thriving populations elsewhere. But what about those cases where that's not true, like the pythons in Florida or the rhinos in Australia?
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HangingThief
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Jurassic Zebra
Apr 15 2016, 09:30 AM
Do yourself a favor and read this post on Chrome.
HangingThief
Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
Monster
Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
Quote:
 
Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?
Posted Image
Perhaps they don't, but that wouldn't be the only thing it wouldn't lead to.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Who knows, maybe we will all hit the sack in the end. But you know what? I think if we do, we'll have had a god-damn good run. Not the destination, but the journey! Can you tell me that there's nothing in those pictures that makes you appreciate all the way mankind has come? How much farther we're destined to go? Shoot not for just the sky, but to the moon! The stars! Infinity! Beyond!
Sure, we have some neat stuff, science and innovation is cool, but overall the modern world is a pretty crappy place. Even though we made it ourselves, it's just not our natural state of being. A savannah dwelling ape that should be able to run and hunt shouldn't be trapped in a crowded cage of steel, concrete and tax returns, even if those who came before it and built the cage happened to belong to the same species.
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LittleLazyLass
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See, the difference here is that you call it a cage.
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I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
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HangingThief
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Jurassic Zebra
Apr 15 2016, 11:51 AM
See, the difference here is that you call it a cage.
It is a cage! We didn't choose to live in it.
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Ànraich
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HangingThief
Apr 15 2016, 11:49 AM
Jurassic Zebra
Apr 15 2016, 09:30 AM
Do yourself a favor and read this post on Chrome.
HangingThief
Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
Monster
Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
Quote:
 
Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?
Posted Image
Perhaps they don't, but that wouldn't be the only thing it wouldn't lead to.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Who knows, maybe we will all hit the sack in the end. But you know what? I think if we do, we'll have had a god-damn good run. Not the destination, but the journey! Can you tell me that there's nothing in those pictures that makes you appreciate all the way mankind has come? How much farther we're destined to go? Shoot not for just the sky, but to the moon! The stars! Infinity! Beyond!
Sure, we have some neat stuff, science and innovation is cool, but overall the modern world is a pretty crappy place. Even though we made it ourselves, it's just not our natural state of being. A savannah dwelling ape that should be able to run and hunt shouldn't be trapped in a crowded cage of steel, concrete and tax returns, even if those who came before it and built the cage happened to belong to the same species.
I don't know, I happen to quite enjoy not living in constant fear of predators and not having to worry about dying from literally any illness. Your posts are starting to get quite spammy as they are not really contributing to the conversation. If you hate modern society so much get up off your computer and go live in the woods. Otherwise please stop cluttering the thread and derailing the discussion, thank you.
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Kamidio
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EDIT: Ninja'd

No one here agrees with you. Stop arguing your point - you can not convince us. Nevermind that this isn't farmer vs hunter-gatherer.

That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand about whether humans should take care of their garden, or let it shirvel and die.

Stop bringing up the farming thing, and stay on-topic.




I think a solution to the problem of what to do with large carnivores would actually be pretty simple. Erect massive preserves away from poachers and cities in areas that resemble their natural habitat, and let them loose.

Release Siberian Tigers into Canada, some African Lions into warmer parts of Europe , et cetera.
Edited by Kamidio, Apr 15 2016, 01:27 PM.
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Scrublord
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Have you ever read David Quammen's book Monster of God? It talks a lot about that question, and basically comes to the conclusion that the only feasibly way to preserve large dangerous predators is to use them as a draw for tourism.
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lamna
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HangingThief
Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
Monster
Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
Quote:
 
Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics


I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.


Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?
Posted Image
That's a bloody land fill. It's a pile of rubbish. It's where we put waste to its all out the way and not in the streets. It's not some post-apocalyptic wasteland.

You know who else gets their trash and put it in a big pile? HUNTER-SHITTING-GATHERERS. What do you think midden mounds are? Abstract seashell art?

We're the same as hunter gatherers. Their not better than us, not worse, they just have a lifestyle that can support less people. Hunter gathers have as many saints and sinners as us. And they certainly have politics.

Your idea about how farming means we can never be truly independent is also bollocks. Humans are social creatures that need at least a couple of decades of training. We're social animals.

Also, Guns, Germs and Steel? Really? It's 2016, that book has so interesting ideas, but there is a lot that is wrong and most of the rest are "just so" stories that don't have any hard evidence behind them.

Finally...you do know you can be a hunter gatherer if you want to? You're an American, you have wild places you could go live in the woods and hunt for game. What's stopping you going out and digging your own toilet?
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