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Naturalism vs Post-naturalism
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Topic Started: Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM (4,215 Views)
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Holben
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Apr 15 2016, 03:09 AM
Post #151
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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I think the opposition to invasive species isn't just because of the sense that they don't "belong", it's also because of the high-profile cases where they caused severe economic or ecological damage; think of the cane toad, brown tree snake, and capybara in the southern USA, as well as rats on pretty much every pacific island.
Philosophically, you can give precedence to 'holism' or 'individualism' in this area. Holism is the idea that ecosystems matter in their own right, whereas invidualism is about the moral importance of every individual. Most people sympathise with both but in invasive species management holism tends to be used as the explanation, whereas the view I think Flisch is putting forwards is highly individualist; we have the same moral obligation to a member of an invasive species as to a previously present one.
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.
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Monster
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Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
Post #152
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Space Oddity
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Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
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HangingThief
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Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
Post #153
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- Monster
- Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
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Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales. Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?
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Hey.
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LittleLazyLass
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Apr 15 2016, 09:30 AM
Post #154
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- Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
- Monster
- Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
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Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?  Perhaps they don't, but that wouldn't be the only thing it wouldn't lead to.
Spoiler: click to toggle We would never witness the creation of all the great wonders of the man made world: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never see animals better, closer, more intimately than any hunter gatherer could dream: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never learn of life before our us, swept away by the sands of time: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never learn of the stars, the universe; never imagine just what's out there: Spoiler: click to toggle Who knows, maybe we will all hit the sack in the end. But you know what? I think if we do, we'll have had a god-damn good run. Not the destination, but the journey! Can you tell me that there's nothing in those pictures that makes you appreciate all the way mankind has come? How much farther we're destined to go? Shoot not for just the sky, but to the moon! The stars! Infinity! Beyond!
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Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
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Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
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But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
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Scrublord
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Apr 15 2016, 11:03 AM
Post #155
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- Flisch
- Apr 15 2016, 02:27 AM
- Sheather
- Apr 14 2016, 10:04 PM
Maybe the stoats on New Zealand will one day diversify into a strange and wondrous clade of new animals like the Madagascaran lemurs or Australia's wallabies, all because of us. To someone in the far future who'd find them, they wouldn't be invasive, but charismatic natives, just like we view the new world monkeys or really almost any animal that evolved somewhere else before moving to where it lives now, like horses, camels, and lions.
I wanted to mention this, but you beat me to it. It should be remembered that literally every species is an invasive one if you just go back far enough. Also, for everyone who loves to play the moral card: Invasive species are most often brought to new environments by man nowadays. How would it be "morally" justifiable to wipe them out? How is their life worth less than that of indigenous species? Just some food for thought.
You want an answer? Try this one on for size. Earlier, I compared the Earth in its present state to a garden--an artificial ecosystem, in other words--and humanity in its ability to transform the world around itself to a gardener. But a gardener does not merely stand by idly while his plants are afflicted by blight, or consumed by insects. He weeds, he sprays pesticides, he plants new plants to replace those that die. As the most intelligent species on the planet, capable of shaping its ecosystems to suit our fancy, we feel the need to preserve those species that seem interesting or special to us--not because it is our moral right, but because, just as a gardener would rather have flowers than weeds, we would rather have honeycreepers than mosquitoes.
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Sayornis
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Apr 15 2016, 11:24 AM
Post #156
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From a pro-diversity (or aesthetic) standpoint it makes sense to at least fight invasive species that are threatening native species-- because the invaders generally have thriving populations in their native land, whereas the native species may not thrive elsewhere. To use an example I'm personally familiar with, I'd rather have bluebirds and starlings than just starlings. Maybe it's inevitable that the starlings will take over in the long run, but that doesn't mean that we as "gardeners" shouldn't make efforts to sustain the bluebirds while we can-- and the same goes for other invasive species.
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Scrublord
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Apr 15 2016, 11:28 AM
Post #157
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That at least makes sense if, as you say, the invaders have thriving populations elsewhere. But what about those cases where that's not true, like the pythons in Florida or the rhinos in Australia?
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HangingThief
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Apr 15 2016, 11:49 AM
Post #158
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- Jurassic Zebra
- Apr 15 2016, 09:30 AM
Do yourself a favor and read this post on Chrome.
- HangingThief
- Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
- Monster
- Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
- Quote:
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Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this? 
Perhaps they don't, but that wouldn't be the only thing it wouldn't lead to. Spoiler: click to toggle We would never witness the creation of all the great wonders of the man made world: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never see animals better, closer, more intimately than any hunter gatherer could dream: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never learn of life before our us, swept away by the sands of time: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never learn of the stars, the universe; never imagine just what's out there: Spoiler: click to toggle Who knows, maybe we will all hit the sack in the end. But you know what? I think if we do, we'll have had a god-damn good run. Not the destination, but the journey! Can you tell me that there's nothing in those pictures that makes you appreciate all the way mankind has come? How much farther we're destined to go? Shoot not for just the sky, but to the moon! The stars! Infinity! Beyond! Sure, we have some neat stuff, science and innovation is cool, but overall the modern world is a pretty crappy place. Even though we made it ourselves, it's just not our natural state of being. A savannah dwelling ape that should be able to run and hunt shouldn't be trapped in a crowded cage of steel, concrete and tax returns, even if those who came before it and built the cage happened to belong to the same species.
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Hey.
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LittleLazyLass
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Apr 15 2016, 11:51 AM
Post #159
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See, the difference here is that you call it a cage.
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
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It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
-
Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
-
Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
Member Quotes - jman123
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Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
- Sheather
-
"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
- Urufumarukai
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Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
-
Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
-
Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
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The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
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When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
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All hail Robo-Stalin.
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Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
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Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
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We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
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For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
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im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
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He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
- Most People at Some Point
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Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
-
Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
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You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
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HangingThief
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Apr 15 2016, 11:56 AM
Post #160
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- Jurassic Zebra
- Apr 15 2016, 11:51 AM
See, the difference here is that you call it a cage. It is a cage! We didn't choose to live in it.
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Hey.
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Ànraich
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Apr 15 2016, 01:17 PM
Post #161
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L'évolution Spéculative est moi
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- HangingThief
- Apr 15 2016, 11:49 AM
- Jurassic Zebra
- Apr 15 2016, 09:30 AM
Do yourself a favor and read this post on Chrome.
- HangingThief
- Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
- Monster
- Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
- Quote:
-
Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this? 
Perhaps they don't, but that wouldn't be the only thing it wouldn't lead to. Spoiler: click to toggle We would never witness the creation of all the great wonders of the man made world: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never see animals better, closer, more intimately than any hunter gatherer could dream: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never learn of life before our us, swept away by the sands of time: Spoiler: click to toggle We would never learn of the stars, the universe; never imagine just what's out there: Spoiler: click to toggle Who knows, maybe we will all hit the sack in the end. But you know what? I think if we do, we'll have had a god-damn good run. Not the destination, but the journey! Can you tell me that there's nothing in those pictures that makes you appreciate all the way mankind has come? How much farther we're destined to go? Shoot not for just the sky, but to the moon! The stars! Infinity! Beyond!
Sure, we have some neat stuff, science and innovation is cool, but overall the modern world is a pretty crappy place. Even though we made it ourselves, it's just not our natural state of being. A savannah dwelling ape that should be able to run and hunt shouldn't be trapped in a crowded cage of steel, concrete and tax returns, even if those who came before it and built the cage happened to belong to the same species. I don't know, I happen to quite enjoy not living in constant fear of predators and not having to worry about dying from literally any illness. Your posts are starting to get quite spammy as they are not really contributing to the conversation. If you hate modern society so much get up off your computer and go live in the woods. Otherwise please stop cluttering the thread and derailing the discussion, thank you.
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We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.
"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming
Tree That Owns Itself
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Kamidio
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Apr 15 2016, 01:26 PM
Post #162
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EDIT: Ninja'd
No one here agrees with you. Stop arguing your point - you can not convince us. Nevermind that this isn't farmer vs hunter-gatherer.
That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand about whether humans should take care of their garden, or let it shirvel and die.
Stop bringing up the farming thing, and stay on-topic.
I think a solution to the problem of what to do with large carnivores would actually be pretty simple. Erect massive preserves away from poachers and cities in areas that resemble their natural habitat, and let them loose.
Release Siberian Tigers into Canada, some African Lions into warmer parts of Europe , et cetera.
Edited by Kamidio, Apr 15 2016, 01:27 PM.
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Quotes - Steve Irwin
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I have no fear of losing my life - if I have to save a koala or a crocodile or a kangaroo or a snake, mate, I will save it.
- Satoru Iwata - Heart of a Gamer
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Even if we come from different sides of the world, speak different languages, even if we eat too many chips or rice balls, even if we wave different tastes in games, every one of us here today is identical in the most important way: each one of us was the heart of a gamer.
- The Writing on the Wall
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You should not have come here. This is not a place of honor. No great deed is commemorated here. Nothing of value is here. What is here is dangerous and repulsive.
- Parasky | 2015
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You can't be 100% certain Barack Obama is currently the US president, or that the nation of Canada even exists.
- Dan Avidan
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See, what I like to do now as an adult is take all that anger and frustration and push it down deep inside of me, until it becomes a seething white core of pure hate.
- Dan Avidan
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Follow your stupid fuckin' dreams.
WAA
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Scrublord
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Apr 15 2016, 01:49 PM
Post #163
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Have you ever read David Quammen's book Monster of God? It talks a lot about that question, and basically comes to the conclusion that the only feasibly way to preserve large dangerous predators is to use them as a draw for tourism.
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My Projects: The Neozoic Redux Valhalla--Take Three! The Big One
Deviantart Account: http://elsqiubbonator.deviantart.com
In the end, the best advice I could give you would be to do your project in a way that feels natural to you, rather than trying to imitate some geek with a laptop in Colorado. --Heteromorph
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Niedfaru
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Apr 15 2016, 01:59 PM
Post #164
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lamna
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Apr 15 2016, 02:11 PM
Post #165
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- HangingThief
- Apr 15 2016, 06:11 AM
- Monster
- Apr 15 2016, 03:55 AM
- Quote:
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Yes it is. If there was no farming there'd be hardly such a thing as politics
I would just like to point out that societies that don't farm (or did not farm when they existed,or have only recently begun farming) do engage in politics - intra-and inter-group territorial disputes, trade, war, exist independantly of farming. Don't underestimate the complexity of human interactions just because they take place on smaller scales.
Yes, but do those sorts of politics lead to this?  That's a bloody land fill. It's a pile of rubbish. It's where we put waste to its all out the way and not in the streets. It's not some post-apocalyptic wasteland.
You know who else gets their trash and put it in a big pile? HUNTER-SHITTING-GATHERERS. What do you think midden mounds are? Abstract seashell art?
We're the same as hunter gatherers. Their not better than us, not worse, they just have a lifestyle that can support less people. Hunter gathers have as many saints and sinners as us. And they certainly have politics.
Your idea about how farming means we can never be truly independent is also bollocks. Humans are social creatures that need at least a couple of decades of training. We're social animals.
Also, Guns, Germs and Steel? Really? It's 2016, that book has so interesting ideas, but there is a lot that is wrong and most of the rest are "just so" stories that don't have any hard evidence behind them.
Finally...you do know you can be a hunter gatherer if you want to? You're an American, you have wild places you could go live in the woods and hunt for game. What's stopping you going out and digging your own toilet?
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Living Fossils
Fósseis Vibos: Reserva Natural
34 MYH, 4 tonne dinosaur.
- T.Neo
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Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna? [flash=500,450] Video Magic! [/flash]
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