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Naturalism vs Post-naturalism
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Topic Started: Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM (4,211 Views)
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Scrublord
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Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM
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I'm 99.99% sure most of us here on the Speculative Evolution forum harbor at least some environmentalist sentiments. It's hard not to when your hobby is so grounded in biology, after all. What I've been wondering, though, is where you all stand on a particular issue that's been on my mind for a while--the subject of naturalism and post-naturalism. Naturalism (as defined here) is the belief that it is foolish or wrong for humanity to change the state of the natural world. Post-naturalism, on the other hand, suggests that humans, as intelligent beings, have a higher moral standing than other life forms and therfore have a right to alter the world around them. Both of these worldviews have their issues--from a naturalist perspective, some legitimately helpful technologies would be seen as undesirable, while from a post-naturalist perspective the enitre idea of preserving nature for its own sake is considered pointless. This is something that I have often thought about. If the destructive actions of humanity are no mor than the result of our nature as a sapient species, the from a post-naturalist perspective it would be foolish to change that. Your thoughts?
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Holben
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Apr 11 2016, 12:28 PM
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Finding the right term for what to do is less important that doing it, in my opinion. We should try to avoid wiping out species and causing mass suffering like we currently are because it is the right thing to do. Like it or not, humans have enormously changed many of the ecological systems in which we live, which will harm us as well as the other species that rely on them. Nobody has a sufficient understanding of what the world was like before humans started this whole civilisation thing because there were no modern scientists and there was no modern equipment or methods, so we can't make everything natural again even if we wanted to.
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.
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Flisch
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Apr 11 2016, 12:44 PM
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- Scrublord
- Apr 11 2016, 11:13 AM
Post-naturalism, on the other hand, suggests that humans, as intelligent beings, have a higher moral standing than other life forms and therfore have a right to alter the world around them. Way to poison the well, buddy.
An objective discussion this is not.
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LittleLazyLass
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Apr 11 2016, 02:43 PM
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I think the first obvious conclusion is that neither extreme is a good thing.
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Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
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Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
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But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
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Mr Mysterio
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Apr 11 2016, 03:05 PM
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Isn't post-naturalism just the belief that the presence of humans has the tendency to alter numerous aspects of nature? Like how we bred wolves to become dogs and that sort of thing. There's nothing in my search results when I type in "post-naturalism" about "humans having a higher moral standing" or anything. It's just a term that basically means "humans like to change stuff." It doesn't seem to really be a philosophical movement or belief, like you make it sound.
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lamna
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Apr 11 2016, 03:13 PM
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I don't know about all these fancy terms.
But we should try our best to stop messing up the planet, while accepting that it's changed forever and we can't just reset it.
For example, I don't really know if we should be bothering with red squirrels in the UK. Ecologically, grey squirrels do almost exactly the same thing, and they are fairly closely related too. In the grand scheme of things, it's a bit shitty for red squirrels but otherwise nothing much changes, especially in the long-term.
Edited by lamna, Apr 11 2016, 03:19 PM.
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LittleLazyLass
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Apr 11 2016, 03:54 PM
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On the potential mis-use of "Post-naturalism" here:- Quote:
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Finding the right term for what to do is less important that doing it
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totally not British, b-baka!
You like me (Unlike) I don't even really like this song that much but the title is pretty relatable sometimes, I guess.
Me  Forum user Uncanny Gemstar drew what is supposed to be a me. Thanks! Spoiler: click to toggle As they walk in, they're greeted by a small, poorly kept pathway leading to a poorly constructed Japanese-style gate. Behind this, a small field made up of corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, among other plants is contrasted by large piles of books, as well as a few rather out of place looking laptops. Off in the corner, a small woman, with long, striped, and strikingly colorful socks, no shoes, unremarkable denim shorts, a large, fancy black coat, arm warmers, glasses, a tuque, and somewhat unkempt, mid-length blue-and-pink-streaked red hair, is rummaging through a trash bin, located behind a sign saying "employees only". She continues this for a while (walking behind a wall to change her outfit now and then), until one of her visitors coughs. Startled, she looks up, apologizes, and grabs a handful of textbooks and novels before daintily running off to join them. What, you want me to tell you what these mean? Predenterra The (Lost) Lost World The Standing World Read First Clarifications on my sex and genderSorry if I come off as rude, I don't put much thought into word choice sometimes. I'm also super prone to editing my posts, sometimes multiple times, in the minutes following posting. For the love of god, take my posts from my earlier days on the forum with a grain of salt. I was not particularly knowledgeable or mature back then. Some of them are so cringe-worthy I can't even bring myself to look at them. Words Maybe Great Words - Words To Spec By
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It would have to be something extremely alien, pushing the limits of our imagination. But those are always my favorite kinds of life. ~~The Words of The Xenologist
- Words To Live By
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Ignorance is never insulting if you're willing to learn, we're all ignorant about most things. ~~The Words of Lamna
- Words I Live By
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Yeah, and even if you don't agree with creationists on that concept, that doesn't mean they can't be decent people. I have friends who are creationist (possibly even young earth) that I get along with fine in general life. I don't think they're right of course, but that doesn't make them intellectual degenerates. ~~The Words of forbidden3
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Ass-breathing fish-lizards? Sounds like a punk rock band
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"Holy fucking shit a toilet paper roll! Our favorite thing!"
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Tyrannosaurus aquastronka
- Kamineigh
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Myo, if you don't stop reading the YouTube comments...
- Lamna
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Are you saying what I think you're saying?
Sheather bathes in cum?
- Cephylus
-
And last night I dreamed I was blowing up a Kindergarten with a grenade launcher for no particular reason...
- revin
-
Oh, and of course more people get killed by selfies than by sharks. Of course.
- Parasky
-
SHEEEEAAAAATTTTTTHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
- whachamacalit2
-
The smell of rotting flesh really kills my appetite, surprising, but the visual appearance of corpses makes me hungry. Is that weird?
- Ebervalius
-
I mean, let us say I'm a genderfluid blurflux demi-romantic woman who is sexually attracted to men, but only if they are Melanesian and have a voice like that of Nicholas Cage. Okay, so what?
- trex841
-
When I first saw that picture, I thought you were dissecting a condom.
- Mr Mysterio
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All hail Robo-Stalin.
- Peashyjah
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Seems like everything in this project is now dead.
- Stealth Rock
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Seagulls are pretty much trees, right?
- Watcher
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We all must finish chapters of our lives to go on to the next. Sometime this means leaving behind versions of ourselves that don't want to die.
- Yiqi15
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For April fool's, we had to make an orgasm that resembled a human foot.
- Flisch
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im the black market
- CaledonianWarrior96
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He was a skater birb, she said tweet you later birb
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Quotes - Some dude called plucas1 from Youtube comments
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Funny, isn't it, that our world needs Clark Kent a lot more than Superman.
- Xenoblade Chronicles
-
Even though he is our creator, that does not afford him the right to take our lives on a whim. But that is the thinking of a homs. He is a god. Such morals cannot apply to gods. So you think we should just shut up and die?! If that is the fate decided by a god. You are mistaken if you think we will simply accept such a fate and wait to die. We'll never stop fighting. Not till the end. To Zanza, the outcome is the same. Thus your logic is flawed.
- Hades - Kid Icarus Uprising
-
When freaky aliens give you lemons, make freaky alien lemonade.
- Kid Icarus Uprising
-
But Souls are delicious. They're like bacon - they taste good on anything. But if you eat them, you completely remove them from existence! They can't move on or... or be reincarnated! Huh. I never really gave it much thought. Besides, what do you mean by reincarnation anyway? You know, being reborn as someone or something else. Which means different body, different memories, different experiences, yes? So isn't being reborn as "something else" the same as being "removed from existence"? I... I... eating souls isn't right! That depends on your definition of "right". All living things survive by eating other living things. So what? You're a god. You should be above all that! Gods are above living things, which doesn't necessarily mean we care about them.
- Some Dude on BBC Two
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You are being shagged... by a flightless parrot.
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Scrublord
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Apr 11 2016, 04:09 PM
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Here's a better description of what I mean. It's from a sci-fi site, though, so take it with a grain of salt:
- Quote:
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From the Enlightenment up to the mid 21st Century, "natural" was considered more virtuous than humanist self-determination. Naturalism is often credited as the basis for the successes of many progressive social movements following the enlightenment. From the American Revolution to the Gay Rights Movement, naturalism was the basis for the arguments for political change. Naturalism formed the basis for the moral order of people before the genetic and cybernetic revolutions of the 21st century, going so far as to be the foundation of morality in media. Popular films and TV shows in the early 21st Century are often seen as the pinnacle of naturalism in popular culture from super-hero movies that depicted anyone who tries to improve themselves or mankind through "Unnatural means" as the villain; to children's films that depicted humanity and/or civilization as a negative. Many film critics consider a perfect example of naturalist thinking gone wrong to be the film Gattaca, which depicted an unaugmented human in a society of augmented humans as a hero fighting against a failed utopia.
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Monster
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Apr 11 2016, 04:17 PM
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If the destructive actions of humanity are no mor than the result of our nature as a sapient species, the from a post-naturalist perspective it would be foolish to change that.
I'm not sure about that, as many of those destructive actions are not just destructive to other species but also to us. It would be more foolish not to change behaviours which are causing us problems - that isn't a demonstrating a higher moral standing, that is just stupidity.
As for naturalism, nowhere is untouched by human influence now, and that is irreversible. Everywhere is just some state of 'managed' now. Some states are simply more desirable than others - this is subjective, though.
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lamna
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Apr 11 2016, 04:23 PM
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Ah man, this topic reminded me about ruddy ducks. I miss those guys, they were so cool.
I think that's the only extinction I've personally witnessed. At least noticed.
But at least the Spanish get to keep their inferior version of the ruddy duck.
Edited by lamna, Apr 11 2016, 04:24 PM.
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Scrublord
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Apr 11 2016, 04:34 PM
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Ruddy ducks aren't extinct. . . or are they?
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Ebervalius
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Apr 11 2016, 04:58 PM
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Ruddy Duck as in genus Oxyura? I think they're going well.
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Dr. Legend
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Apr 11 2016, 05:07 PM
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Well, I usually find it difficult to justify halting or reversing human progress, just to save an endangered species of spiders or whatever, since in my view most animals, and probably all, are basically computer programs in organic bodies. That said a lot of animals are quite similar to human children, and it can be considered a sign of psychopathy to treat an animal sadistically.
Personally I don't see this as an either/or thing. It is certainly possible to advance human progress while protecting the environment.
Like this post Zebra. You know you want to.
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Ànraich
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Apr 11 2016, 05:19 PM
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I think it's a moot question. We've already irrecoverably altered the world as a whole. There is no way to restore the plane to pre-civilization ecological status, and especially not pre-industrial ecological status. All we can do now is try to do some damage control and mitigate any major changes our advancements from this point on will make. You can argue for either side, but the fact of the matter is we live in a post-natural world.
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We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.
"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming
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Dr. Legend
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Apr 11 2016, 05:31 PM
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What is "natural" exactly? When a herd of dinosaurs destroys an entire forest per day, that is natural. When humans do it, it is considered unnatural. Are humans not part of nature?
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