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DC Comics; Because we need something to talk about comics.
Topic Started: Sep 17 2014, 05:52 PM (4,406 Views)
Troy Troodon
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Dec 4 2015, 01:57 AM
Oh, I love Lego Batman. Granted, I am going off his portrayal in the "Lego Movie," but it still cracks me up.

Yeah, I'm not a big Superman fan, but I love his portrayal in "Kingdom Come" and "Red Son." My friends have told me to check out a movie called, "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow," so hopefully I end liking that as well
Read What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way, as well as Superman Birthright, Secret Origin, and All-Star Superman, those are really good!!
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Kamidio
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Batman is far from being very realistic, considering he somehow knows and has mastered every single martial art, and he's got like eleven degrees. He's also supposed to be on an 'Olympic' level in several aspects of his fitness. It takes a lifetime of dedication to master even one martial art, and degrees also take an absurd amount of time to get. Even Olympians aren't perfect all the time, and yet Batman is somehow perfect everytime he runs, jumps, swims, and throws his batarangs.

We're then expected to believe that he's in his late 30s/early 40s, and is somehow capable of staying awake for several hours every day and night with little rest. We're then also told that at night, he goes on patrol and performs feats of strength that would exhaust any Olympian. And he does this nearly every night, without a break.

Any real human being would collapse from exhaustion after the first week of doing what Batman does.

We're then also told an origin story which hasn't changed at all since his inception in the 30s, when mental health care consisted of tossing people into what are basically torture institutions.

Back then, it made sense for a traumatized child without anyone to take care of them to turn into a vigilante.

But nowadays, Alfred is part of Bruce's backstory, and he's Bruce's foster father. Witnessing his parents get shot would mean Bruce would have to go to mandatory therapy sessions, and if Alfred doesn't take him to them, child services will come to Wayne Manor and take Bruce out of Alfred's custody.

In the modern world, Bruce Wayne's origin story wouldn't even get off the ground because mental health care is so much better today than it was in the 1930s.

Bruce Wayne as the mentally ill man who adopts children who've gone through similar pain and tries to help the supervillains he detains because he can relate to them*, while compelling and nice, just doesn't make sense from the perspective of someone living in the 21st century.

*Except for Joker. The guy clearly has Antisocial Personality Disorder, something that can't be treated, cured, helped, or diminished. Guess where all the real world violent serial killers with ASPD who are caught get sent? PRISON. Realistically, Joker would either be serving multiple life sentences, or he'd have gotten the death sentence, depending on the state.

And when something doesn't work anymore- you change it! Batman as a character has become a katamari of traits, abilities, and backstory, and as a result, Batman has suffered because of it. He's basically become Wolverine, except that DC won't admit that he's actually an immortal who has been around since the 30s.

Batman may be incredibly popular, but that's because he's basically a ninja, and people love ninjas!

Batman won't be popular forever, though. Brighter, happier heroes are starting to break through the monotony of 'realistic means dark and gritty'. Steven Universe, Flash, Big Hero 6, Supergirl, the Avengers, and so many others.


I love the core of who Batman is as a character to death, because at his core, he is the same as Superman - someone who is willing to do what is right, no matter how much pain they have to go through to do it, but in a costume that looks vaguely like a bat.

If Batman is to survive as a character, when others start to realize that he's almost as big of a clusterfuck as the Marvel timeline, DC is going to have to take that core, and build him back up with the modern world in mind. Because as it stands I have an easier time believing that Superman is an alien that somehow looks exactly like a human.


If DC put me in charge of clearing the bats out of the attic, I'd start with Batman's core, and work my way up.

Core: Rich guy who wants to do the right thing no matter what, and dresses up like a bat to do it.

Layer 1: Parents were murdered in front of him. He doesn't want any child to ever have to go through what he did.

Layer 2: Doesn't know more than one martial art. Is instead trained in Ninjutsu, and knows the basics of multiple martial arts, as required by a typical Ninjustsu curriculum. Takes a 'jack-of-all-trades' approach to his work, and relies heavily on a small team of allies to handle the things he doesn't know jack shit about.

Layer 3: Focuses on stealth, because being spotted means getting into a fight, which means wasting energy and potentially being out of commission for a long period of time because bullets and broken legs hurt.

Layer 4: A bigger focus on Bruce's better personality traits. A loving father of several adoptees, because he's gone through what they've gone through. A friend to his villains, because he knows that deep down, they're all good people.(Except Joker.)

Layer 5: He doesn't just pull money out of WayneTech, because embezzlement is a crime. He supports his career out of his own pocket, and he doesn't go out every night, because it'd be straining on his budget, and because even the god damn Batman needs a god damn nap, man.

Layer 6: He isn't the ace. He's a street-level hero who created a myth around himself, and it's the myth that allows him to be a terrifying superhero who can stand on even footing with the other founders of the Justice League.



I'd argue that several stories you listed aren't actually all that dark.

Kingdom Come was a deconstruction of the anti-hero stories of the 90s, and was about, how the realistic end result of a world full of anti-heroes would be a human/superhuman war, where everyone loses no matter what.

Red Son was a story about how despite growing up in the Soviet Union, Superman still believes in doing the right thing, though that right thing may be different.


DC's heroes also aren't these unrelatable moral paragons.

Each of the Green Lanterns of Earth has some sort of flaw or fault, and all of them are stubborn as hell, which can be a very bad thing, since stubborn people tend to cause a ton of conflict.

The Flashes are as a whole, a pretty happy bunch, but they all have their faults, and tend to suffer from insecurities and anxieties. In one comic, the Flash breaks down because he couldn't stop some kids from dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. These insecurities often make the Flashes wear themselves out and exhaust them.

Aquaman is highly flawed, and his agressive nature has bitten him in the ass - or hand - many times over the years. I also doubt you can't relate to Aquaman, you're on a biology forum after all. He's the hero - DC or Marvel - when it comes to ecological and environmental issues like pollution, overfishing, and global warming.

Martian Manhunter is a hero who suffers from PTSD, which tons of people can relate to, since tons of people suffer from PTSD. He watched his family die in a horrible war/plague, and suffers heavily from survivor's guilt. You could also buy this guy's weakness at a gas station check-out counter for about a dollar.

Wonder Woman deals with the Greek gods. Anyone who knows their mythology can tell you that there is no dealing with those douchebags without doing some morally questionable things.

Superman is probably the easiest member of the League for me to relate to, as I have autism.

Imagine that you've crash landed on an alien planet. It looks like Earth, but there are lots of differences.

Lights and colors can seem too intense, and you feel like you can hear everything. Smells and tastes are much more intense. You have a hard time dealing with all the sensory input, and the only way to deal with it is to teach yourself how to filter it out.

But there are still some things that can break through that filter, and leave you incredibly uneasy, sometimes to the point of having an episode.

And you look like everyone else on this Earth-like planet, but you're forced to meet their exact standards of what is proper, and you effectively have to put on a mask and try to keep your senses under control, because many, many people can't understand the true you.

You wish the scientists back on Earth had given you a guide to this strange planet, but they couldn't make one. So you've gotta try and learn things about it on your own. Maybe one or two things capture your interest, so you focus on them in particular.

Overall, you feel alienated despite looking exactly like the people living on this weird Earth-like place. But you'll make it work anyway, because you have to.


Superman means so much to me, because he is so easy to interpret as having autism. I can't see myself in Batman. I can't relate to a rich guy from the big city who saw his parents murdered before his eyes. Almost no one can.

But I can relate to the guy who grew up in a small town, who has hypersensitivity, who has a hard time understanding the people around him, and being forced to go it alone since rural areas are generally poorly equipped to handle someone like him.

I can relate to red sun radiation/medicine stripping me down and making me weaker, 'normal'. I can relate to kryptonite/a sensory overload trigger bringing me to the ground in tears because my brain has such a hard time focusing that it hurts.

I can relate deeply to the feeling of not belonging, yet having to tough it out in a world that doesn't make sense to me. I can relate to trying to make the world a more sensible place. I can relate to finding out that I was physically different from 'normal' human beings - learning that my brain is literally wired differently.

Man of Steel was an awful movie, but I will give credit to Zack Snyder on one thing - the scene where young Clark experiences sensory overload and has a public meltdown, and he tries to hide away from it all. I had flashbacks to my years in elementary school, before I was diagnosed.

Superman is a character that is very close to my heart, something that few people - real or fictional -could ever accomplish.



On the topic of Deadpool - DC has put a version of him in their comics. During one of the Crisis events, the inhabitants of the Antimatter Universe come over. One of them is Deathstroke's counterpart, who acts identically to Deadpool, and even has a similar costume. He never says his full name, as all he can ever get out is 'Dea-' before being interrupted. It can be assumed his name is Deathpool or Deadstroke. Or just Deadpool, since the only reason they wouldn't've named him on panel is if his name were copyright-infringy.


There's also Harley Quinn as the villain turned anti-hero. She's even disfigured and wears red and black! There's also Lobo, Ambush Bug, and Creeper.
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Canis Lupis
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You and I just like very different things. I'm not saying that it's wrong to like Superman. I can clearly see why someone would love him. I mean, someone has to if he's been around since the 30s. Your story about why you relate to him the most was incredibly moving. I personally don't see myself in him, but I can understand why you do.

The reason I see myself in Batman has more to do with his philosophy than anything else. The world is not black-and-white; it's full of moral grey areas. No one is 100% good all the time; no one is 100% bad all the time. Everyone is a complex individual, and Batman seems to realize this. The thing I like about Batman is that he is inches away from being one of the villains he faces every day. Just one bad day, and he'll snap. That's what the Joker was trying to prove in the excellent comic "The Killing Joke."

I'm more of a history/political science guy myself. I love looking at the intricacies of the human personality and determining how that affects things. I love learning what makes a man the way he is. Even with mental healthcare the way it is today (still not great, but a lot better than it was), it's easy to see why someone would choose the life of a vigilante. That's why I love the Nolan films. Unlike other Batman origin stories, it takes awhile for Bruce Wayne to become Batman. And along the way, he straddles the line between villain and hero. He brings a gun to the court and almost ends up shooting the guy who killed his parents, for crying out loud, as most people would probably try to do if they felt there were no other option. It takes a special kind of person to put the gun away instead of taking revenge.

The Nolan films delve into Batman's psyche much more than any other film I have ever seen. I love the Michael Keaton/Tim Burton films as much as the next guy. But they're essentially a superhero movie. That's not a bad thing, but that's what they are. The Nolan films are more than a superhero movie; they're a psychoanalysis of Batman, his villains, and the society they occupy.

Batman to me is a symbol of overcoming your darkest moments to do what is best for those around you. Batman, to me, is a realization that despite all the evil that occurs in this world, there is still some good in it and it's worth fighting for (yes, I realize I just quoted Samwise Gamgee in "The Two Towers"). Batman is the realization that everyone has good in them, and that everyone has evil in them. It is up to us to decide which side of ourselves we will show on a daily basis. We are in control of our own destiny. We are our own saviors. We are our own demons. We are human beings, and we are only as good as we want ourselves to be.
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Cephylus
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First trailer had me excited. But now, I think it might be DC's answer to Fant4stic. It just looks awful.

That's.... Overly harsh. Fant4stic was just plain shitty, even worse than the 2011 Green Lantern film. I do agree with you on many points (what you wrote actually summed up my feelings about that trailer pretty well) but I don't think it's going to be that much of a disaster.

But yeah, I do agree that DC is rushing things; from what we can see in the trailer, the movie isn't even "Batman vs Superman" anymore, it's more like "Justice League Part 1". There seems to be too many unnecessary characters/subplots (Wonder Woman especially, I don't even understand why she's in the movie), when the conflict between Superman/Batman would have made a good enough plot for a single movie. I'm not neccessarily saying that this is going to be a bad movie, but juding from Jack Snyder's previous works, I seriously doubt he's capable of making a proper plot.

Canis Lupis
 
Don't you dare call "Watchmen" a turd of a movie. I absolutely loved it! "Watchmen" is my favorite comic of all time, bar none, and I felt the movie did a faithful job adapting it to the screen (or at least as faithful as it could have been. "Watchmen" is one hard comic to adapt). Without a doubt, "Watchmen" is my second favorite superhero movie of all time, after "The Dark Knight," of course

I do agree it wasn't a 'turd' of a movie, but the altered ending completely messed up the film.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

I personally am fine with the ending. Personally, it makes more sense than a telekinetic squid
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Cephylus
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Dec 4 2015, 07:28 AM
I personally am fine with the ending. Personally, it makes more sense than a telekinetic squid
Ozymandias' plan is meant to be ridiculous; and that's why the other characters were powerless in preventing it from occurring- because the plan simply does not make sense.

The biggest problem with the movie ending is that it completely altered Dr. Manhattan's character. In the original comic he's supposed to be this almighty, uncaring being who forsakes humanity simply because he has lost interest in them; but the movie portrays him as a noble saviour who plays Jesus to save humanity.

There's a huge difference between the two, and the movie version basically goes against what Alan Moore wanted to say in the original comic - which shows that Jack Snyder was incapable of grasping what the entire book was supposed to be about.
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Troy Troodon
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If there's anything I'm seeing so far, it's that at least it could be better than MoS. I still don't think it'll be good, but again, at least it'll be better.

At least there's more color, and more humor so it's not 100% depressorama. Eisenberg sure doesn't scream Lex Luthor (At least not like post crisis comics, or in the cartoons) but at least he'll be entertaining so it hopefully won't be joyless again.

Although I gotta stop and wonder if they're just ripping off Loki.
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I'm erring on the side of caution too, but I'm going to watch these movies. It'll be interesting to see how they unfold. I'm actually looking forward to Suicide Squad considerably more than Dawn of Justice.
Edited by Scrublord, Dec 4 2015, 12:42 PM.
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Kamidio
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Suicide Squad's casting is on point. They cast a remorseless criminal who has gotten away with his crimes scot-free as the Joker, who is a remorseless criminal.
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Kamidio
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Jared Leto is a rapist, and he's gotten away with it. If anything, this'll wind up being another Cosby situation and he won't be punished for several more decades. And it saddens me that this is probably an accurate prediction.
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Troy Troodon
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Source? Cause frankly, the only sources I dug up are un-proven.
Edited by Troy Troodon, Dec 4 2015, 04:43 PM.
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Kamidio
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I learned about it months ago. It's hard to find info, because just like with Cosby, society is unwilling to accept that Leto is a rapist.

However, several victims have spoken up about it, and the grand majority of rape accusations are true, so logically speaking, most, if not all, of the accusations towards Leto are true.
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Kamidio
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Update: Nevermind. I seem to have bamboozled.


Also there's a new Batman game being made by Telltale.
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Troy Troodon
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Dec 4 2015, 06:17 PM
Update: Nevermind. I seem to have bamboozled.


Also there's a new Batman game being made by Telltale.
Good to recognize mistakes. ^^

Also--

Another Batman Game?!
Look, Batman's cool and all, but could they have chosen another DC hero to work with like Green Lantern, or The Flash? Furthermore we don't even know what this game will be about since the Arkham series is already complete (For better or for worse) nor do we know who's playing which character (Pretty sure neither Kevin Conroy nor Mark Hamill)
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Kamidio
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Well Telltale's thing is telling tales, so it's natural that they'd wanna make a Batman game. I'll bet it'll be in a film noir style.
Edited by Kamidio, Dec 4 2015, 08:17 PM.
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