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Science News General; Stuff that doesn't need its own topic
Topic Started: Apr 9 2014, 07:11 AM (11,241 Views)
LittleLazyLass
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Something that alien came about in less than 6 million years of isolation?

Does that mean that Diyu is actually pretty tame compared to what could happen in such a scenario?
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LittleLazyLass
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Apparently we're getting names for the four elements that up until now were still under placeholders: 113, ununtrium, is becoming nihonium, 115, ununpentium, is becoming moscovium, 117, ununseptium, is becoming tennessine, and 118, ununoctium, is becoming oganesson.
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Ànraich
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Here's an interesting article from Harvard which posits the idea that life on Earth may be "premature" in a cosmic perspective. It's not very in depth, but the premise makes a good amount of sense and there's some contact info at the bottom of the article for anybody that would like to request more information. I'm not inclined to agree either way, but life on Earth being an anomaly for this period of time in the development of the universe would explain why we haven't seen any decent evidence for either extraterrestrial intelligence or extraterrestrial life of any kind. That would be an interesting answer to the Fermi Paradox: we're not necessarily alone, just the first ones to the party.
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"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Flisch
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That's how I always viewed the Fermi paradox, personally. Once a species takes to the stars, how long will it take until it masters spacetravel and spreads all across the galaxy? If our recent technological progress is any indication they probably go from first colony planet to galactic cosmopolitism in less than a million years. And a million years is nothing in evolutionary timeframes.

So basically, as soon as a species invents spacetravel, it blocks all other intelligent species in the same galaxy from growing up "in peace".

So for me the conclusion of the Fermi paradox was always "humans are the first".
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LittleLazyLass
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I doubt we're the first first, but I wouldn't be all that shocked if we're pretty high up there.
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Ivan_The_Inedible
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Granted, life in the universe has had over 13 billion years to develop and evolve, so it would likely be that a LOT of sapient species have reached across galaxies. Just in different galaxies than our own.
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LittleLazyLass
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No, not necessarily. We need a planet to develop where they can evolve. Took earth 4.5 billion years to even come around, and took a great while longer for it to be fit for life. Then it took hundreds of millions of years for sapient life to come about. Granted, Mars might have been fit for life far before earth (and potentially other bodies, like Venus and Europa), but you get the point.
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Dr Nitwhite
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I always thought it was a bit silly to assume intelligence is inevitable given multicellularity on any one planet. (This oddly seems to be a pervading view of several scientists, that if multicellularity occurs, intelligence is an inevitability.) There always seems to be a jump from the possibility of multicellulariy to the guarantee of intelligence. That's my personal answer to the paradox, we just happen to be an evolutionary quirk, a unique path unlikely to be tread again. That isn't to say ET intelligence is an impossibility, its just not an inevitable convergence.
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LittleLazyLass
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But really think about it. We got to it first on earth, but dolphins, crows, and parrots are all incredibly close as well. Cephalopods, meanwhile, evolved high levels of intelligence completely independently from everything else. So if we've already gotten so close on at least four occasions, and all of them culminating around the same time (with one of them taking the big step), is would seem intelligence isn't that unlikely to come around.
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Tartarus
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I frankly find the Fermi Paradox very hard to take seriously. It is based on way too many assumptions on how advanced alien civilisations "should" behave (e.g. the assumption that Earth is some alien summoning beacon and the assumption that everyone in the universe wants to colonise the entire universe and nothing less).
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Ànraich
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Tartarus
Aug 4 2016, 01:09 AM
I frankly find the Fermi Paradox very hard to take seriously. It is based on way too many assumptions on how advanced alien civilisations "should" behave (e.g. the assumption that Earth is some alien summoning beacon and the assumption that everyone in the universe wants to colonise the entire universe and nothing less).
This is a good point, actually. There's no reason to assume that colonization is a common occurrence among civilizations in the universe, or that the concept even occurs to most species. It's far more likely that colonization is a concept that arises mainly with more aggressive, territorial species that have a higher chance to wipe themselves out before achieving interstellar travel or that other civilizations contain them within smaller territories for their own safety. It may be that we humans are not some of the first, but instead we're part of a colonization-minded minority. It may be that most intelligent species are perfectly happy staying on their homeworld and only exploring space with probes and telescopes.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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flashman63
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Tartarus
Aug 4 2016, 01:09 AM
I frankly find the Fermi Paradox very hard to take seriously. It is based on way too many assumptions on how advanced alien civilisations "should" behave (e.g. the assumption that Earth is some alien summoning beacon and the assumption that everyone in the universe wants to colonise the entire universe and nothing less).
If we assume that life evolves along darwinian lines, we must conclude it seeks to maximize its own reproduction and resource extraction. A single planet is limited, both in space and resources. Therefore, it doesn't make sense for a sapient being not to try to colonize the universe.
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Ànraich
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It also doesn't make sense for a sapient species to engage in nuclear war, but it's very nearly happened. Your logic isn't very sound and is based on incorrect assumptions about how evolution works. Traits evolve in response to environment pressures, not necessarily for specific reasons. If that were the case then there would be no war or competition among humanity since those run counter to maximizing reproduction and resource extraction.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Dr Nitwhite
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LittleIslander
Aug 3 2016, 09:16 PM
But really think about it. We got to it first on earth, but dolphins, crows, and parrots are all incredibly close as well. Cephalopods, meanwhile, evolved high levels of intelligence completely independently from everything else. So if we've already gotten so close on at least four occasions, and all of them culminating around the same time (with one of them taking the big step), is would seem intelligence isn't that unlikely to come around.
We have 4 nearly-there's. Now, we can't look at prehistoric animal behavior directly, but similar levels would probably have existed in the past (though we have decent evidence of social interactions like pack-hunting). Relatively high intelligence, tool use, and/or complicated social interaction are also very common outside the four you listed (perhaps they aren't all nearly-there's) in animals such as: wolves, other primates, woodpecker finches, nuthatches, old-world vultures, pigs, other corvids, etc...

Since the Cambrian era, or if you want to argue "simple" animals weren't going to go anywhere, since the Devonian, we have had around 380-70 million years for a sapient. We appeared in millions of years that could be counted on fingers, after a very particular set of events. I wouldn't say you are entirely incorrect, intelligent animals are quite common nowadays. But I think it a bit presumptuous to assume that more ancient animals would have been unintelligent. Considering all the intelligent species today, who are we to say that this is only a modern occurrence?
Edited by Dr Nitwhite, Aug 4 2016, 11:31 AM.
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Final SE Lifelist standings

BREAKING NEWS
We interrupt your regular programming to bring you this cutting edge report.
ATTENDANCE DROPS DRASTICALLY ON SE SERVER
This past Monday on Discord, famous server Speculative Evolution took a hit in the attendance office when it's offline member list suddenly reappeared. Mods scrambled to rectify the situation, but unfortunately there was little anyone could do. Server member Ivan was asked what he thought of the situation. "So long as Flisch, lord of machines and scion of Urborg lives, all will be well". SE, (in)famous for it's eccentric userbase, has recently been spiraling downward, and now we have hard conformation of the decline. Moderator "High Lord" Icthyander states "There is nothing to be concerned about, Discord is merely changing its UI again", but members are beginning to suspect the honesty of their staff.
Stay tuned, we'll be back with more at 11.
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