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The Politics of Academia
Topic Started: Apr 28 2012, 05:21 PM (1,779 Views)
Dragon
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Magoo
Apr 29 2012, 06:30 AM
I agree with MacG.... I am an anti-Zionist.

I don't think people should just be able to shoulder their way into some place 'cause their ancestors lived there millenia ago.

A lot of the support for Israel (last time I heard it mentioned, around 2001/2002 it was 3,000,000,000 US dollars a year) from America is because.

1, many senior US bureaucrats and power brokers are Jews.
2, many of the nut-jobs in the religious right of the USA, the bible belt (to which the Bushes belong), believe that armagedeon can only come when the Israelites are restored to Israel.
3, much of the media and hollywod is run by Jews

There is a definite pile of dogma that is preached, without question, which supports Zionism. e.g. a Canadian/English journalist (his name escapes me) gives 5000 pounds per year to Oxfam. But after he published several articles criticising Israel's domestic and foreign policy, OxFam turned down his regular donation on the grounds that he was an anti-Semite!!! Get this? He's a Jew himself! Not all Jews are Zionists. Being an anti-Zionist DOES not make you an anti-semite.

A New Zealand research academic was drummed out of academia in the whole nation, when he was accused of being an anti-semite and a Holocaust denyer. All he was doing was questioning the constantly re-inforced DOGMA that there were 6,000,000 Jews killed in the holocaust, he felt that number was inaccurate and it was probably much less. What is certainly known, is that 6,000,000 Poles were also systematically and deliberately exterminated by the Nazis, alongside the rest who were "collateral damage" or starved during the occupation - but Jews are MUCH louder than Poles, so their approximate death toll of 6 million (give or take a million or two) is more abhorrant than the deliberate murder of Polish people (who were murdered because they were priests, communists, intellectuals, doctors, catholics, or just plain Polish).

Merely question ANY sort of Western media/academia dogma about Israel, Judaiism, Zionism or the Holocaust, is tantamount to being anti-Semitic.

I don't agree with those nutjob holocaust denyers, they're insane, it was a hideous vile systematic attempt at genocide, not just of the Jews however, but also the Romani (who are an Aryan people speaking and Aryan language BTW), and nearly ALL Slavic people (who also speak an Indo-Aryan language), mostly the Poles and the Russians. Himmler had a soft spot for the Croats and the Bozniaks however, and the Latvians and Lithuanians and Ukrainians were only too happy to assist the Nazis because of the hated Soviets. Some Nazis also admired the Cossacks, so Cossacks were also "honorary" Aryans (despite the fact that many Cossacks are of Indo-European descent).
However, a lot of that is counteracted by a ton of the anti-Zionist biases of the media in the states, IIRC. I am definitely no expert on this subject (maybe because I lack any opinion on this topic whatsoever), so I can't really argue for or against any of this stuff here.
Edited by Dragon, Apr 29 2012, 08:55 PM.
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colddigger
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There's anti-Zionism in United States media? I wasn't aware of that...
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macgobhain
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Colddigger I'm not sure what you mean by "their ancestors"? If you're talking about peoples grand parents and their great grandparents who may or may not still be a live. This is not a thousand year old conflict, it's only a little over a century old.

Arabs and Jews have lived together in relative peace since the Muslim conquest of the region, which contrary to popular Western misconception the Muslims actually allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem after having been barred from entrance since the Bar Kochba rebellion...

And the racism is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo not as two sided as you're painting it out to be or as people in the West like to. Palestinians enjoy almost NONE of the same rights as Jews, and they never have either, not since the creation of the State of Israel. In many areas where Jews are settling, the settlers spit on them, curse at them, rob them, throw rocks at them, and threaten them from the moment they walk out of their homes. They vandalize their houses constantly and the Israeli police do nothing about it, and when Palestinians attempt to fight back, they are branded as terrorists and their homes bulldozed.

Palestinians are absolutely and positively in every sense and possible connotation of the word desperate. The measures that some of them (and they are the minority) have resorted to are inexcusable, but still understandable. It is the stated objective of the Israeli government to make their lives so miserable that they will finally leave altogether, because as I think it was Ben Gurion who said it: "The Palestinians have a country, it's called Jordan."

My problem with my teacher is that she wanted me to "balance out" an issue that is as two sided as Nazi Germany or the South African Apartheid, and nobody EVER tries to making the playing field equal for either of those two discussions, because we recognize that what the South Africans and the Nazis did was unconscionable. Yet whenever it is this particular discussion, it becomes a matter of making sure that everyone understands how the Jews felt and continue to feel so that we can turn a blind eye to the atrocities that the State of Israel has and continues to commit out of pity.

It's absolutely pathetic and one of the most subjective things I have experienced in academics so far, and it's incredibly aggravating because teachers try to present themselves as being objective on the subject.
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Try to read that and not envision me angry at the keyboard. lol. Cuz I'm not.
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colddigger
Apr 29 2012, 09:03 PM
There's anti-Zionism in United States media? I wasn't aware of that...
I've seen a bit of that bias in a few US news stations, but it's not really that noticeable.
Edited by Dragon, Apr 29 2012, 09:17 PM.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life," John 3:16

A neat pixel animation of a future cowboy


trex841
 
Hey, their right to get freaky ends when it goes up my nose.


I think this describes what dinosaurs are like now

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colddigger
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Mac I said this
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I don't actually know much about it though so my opinions are going to be rather basic and/or biased.


So I apologize.
But I thought Palestinians and Jews were never on good terms? Maybe I'm mixing up my old Asia Minor groups.
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macgobhain
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They were fine until the Tanzimat Era, and the Balfour Declaration only threw gasoline on the flame.
Edited by macgobhain, Apr 30 2012, 12:07 AM.
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dialforthedevil
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'My problem with my teacher is that she wanted me to "balance out" an issue that is as two sided as Nazi Germany or the South African Apartheid'

Your comparing Israel to Nazi Germany? Irony much?
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Because that's what Historians do. Archaeologist find out about the past, Historians write books about how the villains we're not that bad and how the heroes were baby-eating slavers.
Edited by lamna, Apr 30 2012, 01:34 AM.
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macgobhain
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It is ironic isn't it, but it does happen to be the truth. If Hitler coined gassing a population as an international crime people like Ben Gurion, Menachem Begin, Moshe Dayan, and Ariel Sharon would be all over it.
Edited by macgobhain, Apr 30 2012, 02:03 AM.
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seascorpion
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Why Can't I Hold All These Mongols?

I agree with Macg on this, and I classify for Israeli citizenship (not that I particularly want it). I believe that the treatment of Palestinians is horrific. I'm not going to pretend I know the alternative options well though
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Zoroaster
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In almost all cases throughout history, Jews were generally respected by Muslims.

Jews up until the mid 20th century were Always better treated by Muslim nations than Christian western nations.

The Moors who ruled Spain used them as their administrators and book keepers and "wise council" etc. When the Castillians kicked the Jews (who wouldn't convert) out of Spain, the Ottomans welcomed them with open arms.

The large Jewish population of Thessaloniki were descendants of these people.

As previously mentioned, Iranians are more tolerant of Jews than of any other non-Islamic (and non-Shiite) faith. Jews are better off in Iran than Sunni muslims!

A lot of the anti-Iran news in the western media is a propaganda war. I admit the Ayatollahs are crazy loons, but you get what you pay for and you reap what you sow - England and USA helped overthrow the democratically elected leftist government and restore the Shah, who was an evil despot. The only determined organized resistance to the Shah were the Mullahs and Ayatollahs - so they took over the country when the Shah was chucked out.

This whole media campaign against Iran smacks of stuff similar to Hitler's pretend border hostilities initiated by Germans in Polish uniforms so Hitler could invade Poland - it smells like the lead up to an invasion or direct hostilities. The Ayatollahs need getting rid of, but by and large, most of the population of Iran are peaceful educated and EXTREMELY civilized people - instead they're depicted in the media as diehard Shiite versions of the Taliban - they ARE NOT!

Right now, as we speak, Israel is using TERRORIST acts on Iran. Assassinating scientists, dropping "logic-bombs" on Iranian information systems, organising the detonation of bombs at "strategic" locations in Iran.

I have a Palestinian friend. He is a devout Muslim. His family were well educated, and prosperous. They owned land and a big estate on the Mediterranean near Tel Aviv. Israelis now "own" his family's property that was taken at gunpoint. My friend has never been to Palestine. He was born and raised in a refugee camp in Jordan.

Israel is a racist nation. There is no more racist nation on the planet. It is an apartheid system. In the occupied territories "settlers" are allowed and encouraged to go armed, with fully automatic weapons. Arabs however, if they're seen carrying firearms are shot on sight.

In the early nineties, the Israeli parliament passed a law that Palestinians would be forced to WEAR AN ARMBAND to distinguish them as being NOT Jews. Anyone note the irony here? It's kinda like Animal Farm, at the end they can't tell the difference between the pigs and the humans - right here in time, I can't tell the racist Jews from the Nazis. Anyway, long story short, a lot of European jews, holocaust survivors and their descendants, in protest, put on and wore the yellow star that the Nazis made them wear - and the law was repealed, or never enacted or enforced or something.

Another irony of the situation in Israel - is that MOST of the hardline Israelis, the Netanyahoos and Dayans etc, ARE NOT from European Jewry - they are not and have no link to the Holocaust. Also, there is a deliberate Israeli policy to kill the Yiddish language. Hebrew is/was a dead language, a liturgical language, only spoken by the Rabbi in the Synagogue and read from the Talmud - but it was resurrected and is now the official language of Israel.

And also lets not forget, that a significan minority of Palestinians are Christians, and are just a discriminated against as their Muslim brothers. It's an apartheid Racist state, but if you're outspoken and critical of Israel, you're accused of anti-Semitism.
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macgobhain
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Well, technically I qualify for citizenship too now that I think about it... at least I think. My dad's mom is technically a Sephardi Jew but her family has been Christian for a long ass time, but as far I know, I'm form an unbroken line of Jewish mothers and therefore by Halakhic I am a Jew... I have never in my life considered myself Jewish though, and neither has she. Being Sephardi (or as she says Sefaradi) was just a linguistic thing, and since there weren't any other speakers where she grew up back east it was only spoken at home. The Sefaradi language or as it is otherwise called "Ladino" is a descendant of Castilian, so she always considered herself Latin, not Jewish. It doesn't matter though because once she married my Sicilian grandpa my great-grandmother passed on her "powers" to my grandma (she was a strega) as she didn't have any living daughters, so my grandma has very much immersed herself Sicilian language and culture. My brother's funeral was the first time I had EVER heard her speak her native language, which prompted my linguistics class project that semester :)

But... wow. So when I set foot on Israeli soil, I was a citizen already according to the law. I could go live in a government subsidized community right now if I wanted to.... eeeeeeewww! Yuck! I feel violated just having those rights over the people that I was there with my mom to stand up for!

And I've been to Iran as well and I wouldn't quite say that about their current situation. There are some parts of the country that get pretty scary at certain times of year, like the Iram festival or whatever it is. I saw a mother drawing blood from her infant child's head, but then Jews draw blood from the already circumcised penis of their converts as part of the rituals of conversion so... I do definitely agree though that we overthrew the democratic government that existed in favor of the Shah, probably because had it continued to exist, it might well have become a powerful rival to Israel, and people wouldn't be able to be sold on the concept that Israel is the shining example of "democracy in the Middle East". Iranians are still pretty good with their Jewish community (Western propaganda is bullshit, I've seen how well they function in cities like Tehran, Esfahan, and Sari), and they have delicious food. It really is sad what has happened though when you compare today's Iran to the Iran of the 1940s.

What's an interesting thing to think about Magoo, that I recently drew the analogy of to my teacher in a letter I wrote her regarding my project, is the skin color of those being denied rights around the world. It seems that every time a true, Western style, freedom loving idea for a democracy comes up in a country that is NOT White we actively do what we can to suppress it before it spreads. Ho Chi Minh anybody? Or how about the fact that the UN didn't care to pay attention to the Roma people's need for their own nation to "avoid discrimination"? They were hunted down just as bad as the Jews (there just weren't as many of them to kill), and yet nobody cared about them... I don't know. History is full of a number of anomalies that I think are conveniently glossed over in the West to keep us thinking a certain way while we keep ourselves rich, and everyone else poor.



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seascorpion
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Why Can't I Hold All These Mongols?

I think Romani people deserve there own nation as much as Jewish people do, I also believe Kurdish people deserve a nation as well.
Obviously, there is not much likelihood that either will happen in the near future
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macgobhain
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Yeah but the problem is where are you going to put them?

Kurds, sure. That's easy. The population of Northern Iraq, a small part of Northwestern Iran, and part of Eastern Turkey and Northeastern Syria are all majority Kurdish, but the Romani? They're EVERYWHERE, and there are millions of them!

Where do you sensibly put millions of people without displacing somebody else these days?
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