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No Toraceratops!; It finally happened.
Topic Started: Feb 16 2012, 08:34 AM (5,591 Views)
Forbiddenparadise64
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http://jabrosky.deviantart.com/art/Triceratops-vs-Torosaurus-284975547

Read the comments and look further into the truth behind torosaurus and crew. The idea that it is an older triceratops actually makes no sense whatsoever, and the assumpitions for pachycephalosaurus are as bad as, if not worse than saying that a white tailed deer is a juvenile moose because it lives in the same area at the same time. Also, nanotyrannus DOES seem to be a valid genus; it has fully fused bones, a different number of teeth and a different brain structure to a juvenile t rex. This is all part of Horner's scheme to reduce the number of dinosaurs by a third (A HUGE AMOUNT!) to prove that dinosaurs are the most rubbish animals ever or something. Heck, it gets worse, Denver Fowler believes that HALF of all dinosaur genera should be lumped together-thats not science, thats madness. Not just dinosaurs ever, he still believes that other groups like pterosaurs, mososaurs, notosuchians, testudines, more primitive mammals etc were all declining too. Mainstream paleontology is turning into garbage people. We need to do something about it ASAP!
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Forbiddenparadise64
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Exactly. While mainstream media is becoming more and more eratic and divided in every way other than the realistic way, we and PROPER paleontologists are always here to show the real facts. SV-POW, Paleoking, and the like are what I now listen to, not the rubbish on wikipedia.
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Forbiddenparadise64
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Sorry if I sounded a bit stupid for making a rant. I'm trying to get a point across. Horner is going way too far. I never said that making a skeleton smaller makes it a seperate species, and I'm aware that T rex juveniles were lighter in build than adults. But t rex juveniles bones aren't fused, while nanotyrannus's are-nanotyrannus's brain, jaw line and arm proportions are also significantly different to that of a juvenile T rex. there's probably more difference between the two than between a tiger and a leopard, which seems enough. In torasaurus/triceratops, the differences are even greater; the horns, frill (it seems Horner deliberately tried to make the reconstruction of that old triceratops look like torasaurus even though it most liekly was'nt, not to mention no such absorbing of holes is seen anywhere else in ceratopsians or in dinosaurs in general) the strongly different snouts of the animals among other things. The silliest idea by far of course is the pachycephalosaur one, saying that an animal will start out a peaceful little herbivore normally, grow a really strange crown, longer limbs, different beak etc later and than reabsorb horns and develop some really thick head for display makes no sense at all. The new ceratopsian finds show at least they were more diverse in america than previously thought, and even with this, that america was a hurt ecosystem at the end of the cretaceous-that does'nt mean the rest of the world was too. But the worst and most infamous case of lumping however was by Greg Paul lumped together deinonychus and velociraptor, and we all know where that lead ;).
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Forbiddenparadise64
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Exactly. Insects can do it because they don't have skeletons-all they need to do is lose weight in the pupa and they can grow smaller. Even so, not all instects have complete metamorphisis. Losing weight and shrinking are not the same thing. Also for those who believe in archosaurs morphing after adulthood; yes it does happen, but nothing nearly as extreme as toraceratops happens!
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Forbiddenparadise64
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Well, in case anyone wants to support the torasaurus=/=triceratops view, heres one of paleoking's quotes on the issues with them being the same:

Quote:
 
Well the problems with the Horner theory are more numerous than just that.

1. The change is too radical for an animal that is no longer juvenile

2. Torosaurus is far rarer than Triceratops, too rare to simply be the same animal a few years older. 90% of Hell Creek's large herbivores are Triceratops, Torosaurus forms less than 1%.

3. Torosaurus has way more epoccipitals than Triceratops - and not only that, their numbers are far more variable in Torosaurus (from 30 to 37), while Triceratops always has exactly 17.

4. The Milwaukee specimen of Torosaurus [link] has larger skull (including jugals) than Triceratops, but much smaller postcrania. Doesn't make sense why an adult animal's individual bones would be smaller than those of a "juvenile". Of course Horner doesn't specify if his 30-footers are really juvenile Triceratops or middle-aged adults, he just claims Torosaurus are "old adults". Ok whatever.

5. Beak shape in complete skulls is radically different - Triceratops had an eagle beak, Torosaurus has a much less curved "condor" beak that slopes downwards.

6. Nasal horn position (and snout/beak length ratio) differs between Torosaurus and triceratops. Torosaurus has shorter post-nasal-horn snout and longer beak. No ceratopsian is known to radically change beak shape or beak/snout ratios when reaching maturity.

7. The only Triceratops specimen that shows even remotely Torosaurus-like snout proportions and horns is the T. eurycephalus type skull [link] , which is a very old adult with reabsorbed frill studs but NO fenestrae in the frill! This may be the most basal Triceratops species, close to a fork with Torosaurus.

8. There appears to be ontogenic variation within Torosaurus itself! [link] The Yale specimen, the MOR specimen, the Denver specimen all show a great deal of variation in epoccipital reabsorbment and horn curvature. Indicating that Torosaurus is its own creature that underwent ontogenic changes of its own. Either that or Triceratops are still changing shape all the way to senility.

9. There are other ceratopsids close to Triceratops (like Eotriceratopsn Nedoceratos, and Ojoceratops) that don't fit comfortably in any part of Horner's ontogeny sequence. Nedoceratops has an odd mix of features that are only found individually in Triceratops of completely different ages, as well as having a high horn angle completely inconsistent with the forward curvature as well as the skull's advanced ontogeny, if one were following Horner's theory [link] to its logical conclusions. Its squamosals don't look like anything known in Triceratops or Torosaurus.

10. The beak of the YPM skull, as well as the horn tips and rear frill of the MOR skull and most of the Milwaukee specimen skull have been incorrectly reconstructed to look like Triceratops. Also the MOR skull has a huge nasal boss in place of a horn, which is not consistent with anything seen in Triceratops.

11. All the Torosaurus specimens have relatively straight slender horns, not the thick robust forward-curving horns of mature Triceratops. In fact the closest thing to a Torosaurus brow horn among most Triceratops is adolescents or young adults of Triceratops which have barely attained the double curve stage: [link] let alone the strong forward curve stage of mature Triceratops horridus and prorsus: [link] [link]

So did mature Triceratops just straighten out their horns a SECOND time and make them longer and slimmer after having already absorbed the tips and thickened the bases [link] , all to become Torosaurus? I doubt it.

Oddly enough the only mature Triceratops that has horns anything like Torosaurus is T. eurycephalus, which is already a very old adult and shows no signs of fenestration, and has a far smaller head and frill than Torosaurus despite its age.

Torosaurus: [link]

T. Eurycephalus: [link]

Looks to me like instead of ontogenic stages, we see two genera with a common ancestor. And T. eurycephalus is one of the most basal descendants of that ancestor.


Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Forbiddenparadise64
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This is an interesting debate so far about theropods and crocodilians, and how they seem to have been competing in the later part of the cretaceous. Perhaps its true that if dinosaurs (or at least theropods) never existed, than crocs would be the dominant organisms before the K-T.

Anyway, can we please get back on topic?
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Quote:
 
Anyway, can we please get back on topic?
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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