Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Speculative biology is simultaneously a science and form of art in which one speculates on the possibilities of life and evolution. What could the world look like if dinosaurs had never gone extinct? What could alien lifeforms look like? What kinds of plants and animals might exist in the far future? These questions and more are tackled by speculative biologists, and the Speculative Evolution welcomes all relevant ideas, inquiries, and world-building projects alike. With a member base comprising users from across the world, our community is the largest and longest-running place of gathering for speculative biologists on the web.

While unregistered users are able to browse the forum on a basic level, registering an account provides additional forum access not visible to guests as well as the ability to join in discussions and contribute yourself! Registration is free and instantaneous.

Join our community today!

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Spaying/Neutering pets/animals/organisms; Continued from offtopic in "What would happen to our pets after Humans die out?"
Topic Started: Jan 21 2012, 05:39 PM (521 Views)
T.Neo
Member Avatar
Translunar injection: TLI
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
EDIT: This thread was created as an offspring of the offtopic discussion in the "What would happen to our pets after Humans die out". The following in this post is a semi-rant from that thread, feel free to ignore it and discuss the issue at leisure.

Quote:
 
Get off it!


What from here to Mu Arae am I supposed to "get off"? :|

Quote:
 
You know T.Neo I think your opinion is stemming from the fact that you're being overly emotional about the death of your dog and you're seeking someone/something to blame.


Er, firstly, I'm not looking for something or someone to blame.

Secondly, don't tell me I'm being "overly emotional" about anything. It is uncalled for.

What am I supposed to do? Not adversely react to the fact that my dog is dead? Change my last name to Spock, lest I be "overly emotional"?

Quote:
 
so I HIGHLY doubt that she got cancer solely because she was still in possession of the sex organs that nature endowed her with.


Of course the sex organs didn't cause the cancer; it could have been a combination of genetic, environmental and hormonal factors.

However, the scientific data on the matter exists. From this page;

Quote:
 
Compared with bitches left intact, those spayed before puberty have 0.5% of the risk, those spayed after one estrous cycle have 8.0% of the risk, and dogs spayed after two estrous cycles have 26.0% of the risk of developing mammary neoplasia later in life. Overall, unspayed bitches have a seven times greater risk of developing mammary neoplasia than do those that are spayed. While the benefit of spaying decreases with each estrous cycle, some benefit has been demonstrated in bitches even up to 9 years of age.


So it is not "ah, but I blame the reproductive organs, reproductive organs are evil, remove them!!!", there is a marked benefit in the reduction of the incidence of mammary tumors from spaying.

Quote:
 
There are a number of ways you could have treated her cancer as well.


Do you have any veterinary experience of any kind behind that statement? Even cursory research on the internet counts.

The vet we took her to removed some of the tumors, but missed smaller ones, that she didn't take out. She never (to my memory) advocated any medical (i.e. chemotherapy) treatment or special diet/excersise plan.

Quote:
 
And no, your opinions are based entirely off SPECULATION! You cannot speak to the animal, therefore you cannot determine whether or not it thinks feels exactly how you say it does. I'm a linguist, and there's a whole field dedicated to studying animal language, and it's conclusively agreed on that we can't PROVE a great deal involving our theories about animals' cognitive abilities because because we cannot as of yet decipher what they're saying. Animal linguists observe, learn, and hypothesize new things every day. The idea that elephants are able to pick up low frequency vibrations on their feet and that they may use these to communicate over great distances is a new theory. Until you can prove that you've had an in depth conversation with a dog about his/her concerns about their body then you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that they just "don't care" as you stated.


Firstly, constantly saying "no, but you're wrong!!!" doesn't make you right.

Secondly, I find it a bit odd that you argue by "you can't speak to an animal, therefore you don't know what they want" yet assign desires and worries to them yourself anyway. It's kind of like saying "you don't know the full picture, therefore I'm right!".

Thirdly, being a linguist doesn't magically qualify you in regards to animal languages. And "animal languages" (in the same term as human language) do not exist, only animal communication. You don't get the same dynamics in animal communication as you do in human language. Nor do discoveries in animal language invalidate everything I say.

Quote:
 
And no, this isn't about Male Castration Anxiety to me. It's about the relationship I hold with my pet and following nature's laws. If nature had intended that dogs be eusocial like ants and only a select few be born with sex organs, then it would have played out that way. It didn't though, did it? So, in the case of keeping a pet, I believe in putting myself in its shoes, and keeping it how it was made, simply because if nature had intended otherwise things would be different, and I know I wouldn't want to be modified according to someone's perception of what my "best interests" are.


But you're not really putting yourself in the animal's shoes. You're putting the animal in your shoes first.
Edited by T.Neo, Jan 22 2012, 04:50 AM.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lamna
Member Avatar


Good grief. I need a holiday from here. Sorry about your dog mate.
Living Fossils

Fósseis Vibos: Reserva Natural


34 MYH, 4 tonne dinosaur.
T.Neo
 
Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna?
[flash=500,450] Video Magic! [/flash]
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fireplume
Southern Speckled Spearrunner
 *  *  *  *
I'd only ever own a non-neutered/spayed animal if I planned to breed it, or it was too difficult/expensive to do it. Overall, it improves an animal's health and temper.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ook
Member Avatar
not a Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
My cats were neutered, as I din't wanted smell tomcat urine all over house or drown in flood of kittens
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kamidio
Member Avatar
The Game Master of the SSU:NC
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I think that if you support those bouquet thingies, then you support neutering.

So if you support doing it to plants, you have to support doing it to animals.
SSU:NC - Finding a new home.
Posted Image
Quotes
WAA
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Temporary
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Inside animals, spay/neuter away, outside it's a matter of choice.

The truth of the matter is this. The pet belongs to the owner, the owner is the animal's stewart. As their owner we do take on a responsibility to the animals' well-being. Note the plural. Not only does this involve you're pet's personal well-being but it's offspring as well.

If the cat's inside, (I have much more experience with cats then dogs, since I mostly end up with male dogs and female cats, and queens lead to catsplosions) then I get them fixed. They won't be meeting another cat, so going into heat won't do any good and just cause them a ton of discomfort. Besides, even if they could meet another cat, the inside of the house is just too small for kittens who need room to play and grow. Someone else with a bigger house, they might be able to do it, but it's not an option here.

Outside, I don't. But that's out of pragmatism. The cats scare off most vermin, they get along fine for the most part, they seem pretty happy. But I live in a rural part of the state, they have more space then they could want. If I lived somewhere else my decision would be different.

I guess what I'm saying is, we know better then they do. We have the responsbility to make the decision.

(On another note, T. Neo, can you change you're opening post a little? Just to open people up to the question? People who just want to join into this conversation aren't going to hunt down the original conversation...so... yeah. And it is a tragedy, cancer sucks, human or animal)
Quote:
 
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear


I'm here.

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Should we bring back Recon? Click here to share your opinion.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kamidio
Member Avatar
The Game Master of the SSU:NC
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I agree completely.
Edited by Kamidio, Jan 22 2012, 12:04 AM.
SSU:NC - Finding a new home.
Posted Image
Quotes
WAA
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Zoroaster
Member Avatar
Fecund Fundiment
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I don't know what happens in other parts of the world, but animal shelters and the RSPCA here in Australia will NOT release an abandoned animal into the custody of its adopters UNTIL it has been spayed.

I've had two tomcats and one bitch dog from animal shelters. The operation to spay them is part of the cost of buying the animal from them. The premier animal welfare organisation in Australia is the RSPCA (and DEFINITELY not fucking PETA) - they are a respected and well established body. Animals that cannot be placed or adopted are euthanised. This is not their goal, but what are they going to do? Abandoned and stray animals in suburbia is a constant problem. So their goal being "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals" is not being achieved if they spay all the animals they adopt out?

I think the benefit of having neutered animals FAR outweighs the serious issue of neglected and stray animals. When my mum was a girl, living on a farm, the only practise that was occasionally adopted was to castrate male animals - but it was never practised - veterinary procedures were out of the question! My mum lost count of the number of times she had to drown kittens and puppies! She hated it - but it was better than having plagues of cats and dogs all over the place! Imagine the impact on the nearby bush with stray cats turning feral etc! The farm was mostly a chicken farm, the cats were there to keep rodents in check.

This is a highly emotional debate, but in this country domestic animals do a huge amount of damage to wildlife, and even to sheep (domestic dogs savaging sheep).
The Speccer Formerly Known As Magoo...
My exobio project(s) :
Hormizd / Zarathustra

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kamidio
Member Avatar
The Game Master of the SSU:NC
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Problems with large placental mammals? Here's a good solution.

1: Open a farm.

2: Fill farm with komodo dragons.

3: Breed the dragons, selecting for the traits of big, strong, highly venomous, ravenous appetite, taste for feral placentals, and pleasant temperament towards humans.

4: Release these Neomegalania upon area where feral placentals gather.
SSU:NC - Finding a new home.
Posted Image
Quotes
WAA
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

I felt really bad about getting my dog spayed, but I was convinced to.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
dialforthedevil
Member Avatar
Frumentarii Administrator

Neither of my dogs are speyed, but thats because we hope to breed them and sell off the pups, their breed apparently is worth a fourtune (Golden Doodle, according to my mum).

In the UK at one point we were swamped with cats so the government tried to sterilize as many cats as possible, nowadays its almost impossible where I live to buy kittens or even adopt them.
Please come visit A Scientfic Fantasy http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3433014/1/

ALSO!!! JOIN THE NEW RPG SITE!!! FOR ALL MEMBERS!!! IM GOING TO RUN MA GLOBAL SIMULATORS THERE!!! http://s4.zetaboards.com/jasonguppy/index/

Join the Campaign to save minotaurs from extinction!!! (include this in your signature to show your support!)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
seascorpion
Member Avatar
Why Can't I Hold All These Mongols?

I believe that it's necessary, especially in Australia. If it goes feral than it won't be able to breed. Though in other parts of the world I understand that it isn't a concern.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
colddigger
Member Avatar
Joke's over! Love, Parasky
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Wait... was my post deleted??
Oh Fine.

Oh hi you! Why don't you go check out the finery that is SGP??

v Don't click v
Spoiler: click to toggle

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ànraich
Member Avatar
L'évolution Spéculative est moi

Temporary
Jan 21 2012, 11:54 PM
Inside animals, spay/neuter away, outside it's a matter of choice.

The truth of the matter is this. The pet belongs to the owner, the owner is the animal's stewart. As their owner we do take on a responsibility to the animals' well-being. Note the plural. Not only does this involve you're pet's personal well-being but it's offspring as well.

If the cat's inside, (I have much more experience with cats then dogs, since I mostly end up with male dogs and female cats, and queens lead to catsplosions) then I get them fixed. They won't be meeting another cat, so going into heat won't do any good and just cause them a ton of discomfort. Besides, even if they could meet another cat, the inside of the house is just too small for kittens who need room to play and grow. Someone else with a bigger house, they might be able to do it, but it's not an option here.

Outside, I don't. But that's out of pragmatism. The cats scare off most vermin, they get along fine for the most part, they seem pretty happy. But I live in a rural part of the state, they have more space then they could want. If I lived somewhere else my decision would be different.

I guess what I'm saying is, we know better then they do. We have the responsbility to make the decision.

(On another note, T. Neo, can you change you're opening post a little? Just to open people up to the question? People who just want to join into this conversation aren't going to hunt down the original conversation...so... yeah. And it is a tragedy, cancer sucks, human or animal)
This. A dog might be a living organism, but it's also property. And in order to maintain the property, it is necessary to take some precautions. What do you do if your dog runs off and impregnates another dog? Who will take care of the puppies? You? The other dog's owner? Just because they're pets doesn't mean they're not capable of acting like wild animals, a pregnant dog or cat or one with recently born offspring can be very dangerous. I know that from experience, I've been mauled by my own cat just for walking near where it had its kittens (by the way cats will tear your house the fuck up looking for a place to make a hidden little den for her litter).

That being said I've had pets that have been neutered and that haven't been. Those that aren't neutered tend to be a little more rough and can be mean (but that's more dependent upon their personality). Not very safe for small children, especially if its a large dog like a great dane. They are more fun in my opinion though.

The only pets I really like though are plants. You don't feed them, clean up after them, they don't get sick. all they need is water and light, and the only thing they produce is good old oxygen. And even though you can't neuter a plant (I suppose you could if you wanted to) it's okay; nobody is against plant abortion. I mean, who would be against agriculture? Oh and also:

Posted Image
GET YOUR PETS SPAYED OR NEUTERED TODAY!
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

Tree That Owns Itself
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Enjoy forums? Start your own community for free.
Learn More · Register for Free
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply