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Hive-People
Topic Started: Nov 8 2011, 09:58 PM (912 Views)
colddigger
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This thread is for the development of a Hive-person, and that people in general.
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urufumarukai
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Are we talking about humans with a hive mind, or hive minded sapients in general?
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colddigger
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Oh I should elaborate.

This is a thread for the discussion of a hive mind arising from unintelligent eusocial organisms, like from bees or ants or alien whatsits.

I'm thinking it should be a thread for the discussion of hives and colonial life in general but it was originally a thread for the hive-people I was developing in the Ethics thread.
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colddigger
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Quote:
 
I'm very curious how hive minds would work, colonial organisms, something like a siphonophore would likely develop maybe a member or two that specialize in higher thinking but something like an ant colony or bee hive or termite mound, I would expect its processing to be rather slow and work within its walls but once the members leave the outreach is not directly controlled by the intelligence...


<T. Neo>
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Though, I've wondered about colonial/eusocial organisms, that don't invent new technology, but evolve it. In other words, the hive as a whole could exhibit sapient-esque behaviours, but the members wouldn't be sophonts as we would know them.

How could they act? And interact?


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I'm not really following what you mean by not inventing but evolving technology, I'm working with the idea of army ants where the colony is not a stationary thing, once they run into a problem they could test various methods of solving it including creating objects and then remember the problem and the method that was successful...

I would think they would act very selfishly and hedonistically unintentionally as individual members react and start chain reactions to input automatically (there could possibly be some system which allows the hive to practice self-restraint though), I wonder if they would only be "semiconscious" or only partially in control of themselves, as their members move further apart I would think they would lose their sense of self as well as lose self control, the smaller groups reacting more automatically to input as larger systems of thought are broken down to the point of not functioning properly, once brought back together though I question if it would be the same ....person.... If it were it might be a rather embarrassing event for them (assuming the hives are social with one another such an emotion would likely arise to prevent stupid decisions and actions toward one another), though considering fission is a method of reproduction already practiced by hive insects on Earth and likely a method to be practiced by these alien hives I would suspect that there would be a point of scattering where once the hive is brought back together the ....person..... is lost and a new one is "born."

Interaction between hive-people would have to be very careful I think, there may be a thin line between talking and warring among them. Arguments quickly boiling down to murder as aggression develops in their unintelligent members.
Among those that hide away in a hive they would have slow communication involving sending individuals out carrying messages constructed by the colony which are then interpreted by the other person, this would be fairly easy for a human being to communicate with, a hive-people who does not talk like this and lives outside of a structure might actually communicate by having a place where individuals of the two hives interact, with the masses away from this line processing information, if the two hives merged then one could observe the other as it thinks and be considered a form of mind reading. That may be faster as lots of stuff can be said back and forth along the line.
For those hive-people I would think that individuals actually interacting would be preferably very young, having yet formed any important role in the colony, that way if a war broke out the line could be abandoned by the two colonies to prevent murder, allowing the talking members to kill one another until they settle down and possibly get picked off by some predator.


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The sapience of the colony relies on the members of the colony interacting in systems and those systems becoming more and more complex, if the colony falls apart then the sapience disappears and they become more simple until the hive-person is lost.

When in a large enough group I would expect the members to form basic systems that develop into a hive-person. So if you were to take a hive-person, with all its systems working to sustain its personality, and then suddenly broke it into groups completely separate and small enough that systems cannot sustain themselves then you've basically destroyed the hive-person, then you bring the groups back together, the members won't be able to reform the original hive-person and go back to default... a lighter way of looking at it would be amnesia, but it's more along the lines of Frankenstein's monster.

For reproduction I'm wondering if fission should be common, it's a possibility but I think they would prefer to keep themselves together, start a brand new colony and raise it until that group is large enough to form personality systems, and then teach their child. They would have to be careful not to exchange workers/absorb the child....

It seems to me that people associate emotionlessness cold calculating with hive-minds, but the way I'm developing them they'd have quite a bit of emotion with them, a maternal love to their child, embarassment to prevent the hive-person from allowing their members to do something stupid when socializing, aggression (more so on the member level) and so on... They'd also develop culture of sorts and self-preservation (at least for the hive-person).


That's what I've done for it so far...
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colddigger
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:D

HOKAY

So thoughts on the reproduction of the Hive-People, fission is just too valuable a method to give up in my opinion. But it would be a bit of a problem if the hive actually split, that would disturb the way the mother hive is arranged.

So instead they rear the origin members, the queens which are to continue providing members for the children once on their "feet", along with generations of starter members for the children which are to be refused from the mother hive-person and guided to protect and provide for individual queens.

Once matured and distributed to their queens the developing hive-children are isolated within the mother hive-person for protection, the members begin forming their basic systems and are allowed to be sent off to explore the environment, a few are expendable so long as the queen has begun producing new ones.

As the number of members of the child grows the complexity of its systems grows as well, often influenced by the mother, in some groups the mother actually integrates her own systems into the child either as a template or, in some more sinister cases, hijacking the child to duplicate certain systems much like a virus.

During these periods it is important to continue the isolation, the members of the mother will become restless by the presence of these quickly growing hives, they will begin to view it as an internal threat, an invasion of sorts, and if not controlled will respond as they do when invaded and warred upon.

A motherly love from the mother Hive-Person to their offspring is one safeguard to prevent this. It exists on two levels actually, one is the member level where the Mother's members do not attack the Child's members outright for being within their hive, the second level is the isolation of the Child's systems from and by the Mother's systems while within her so as to prevent forced assimilation.

The child's members will on the other hand either respond similarly or assimilate into the mother, causing a tragic accidental death of the child. Symptoms of this beginning to take place would be a sort of mental bleeding from the child to the mother which increases exponentially, complete absorption results in temporary sense of a split personality before the the major systems of the child are disassembled and integrated automatically by the mother's members. Once aware of the event beginning to unfold within them the mother under most circumstances is stricken with depression, slowing certain processes and withdrawing most members into her and lashing out at attempts to communicate. This slows the integration of the child and prevents further pressure for its members to merge with the swarm of the mother Hive-Person.

At this point the child is on its own, if not too broken it will regenerate its numbers and heal, depending on what relationship it had with the mother it will either move on to a new location or attempt to console their mother and survive under her guidance and protection until larger.

If too broken then that means that much of the child was already absorbed into the mother, what remains are a few broken systems that, if lucky, revert back to an infantile state. More often than not this new system can be considered an entirely new child, on occasion there may remain some underlying method by which the system works which can be loosely compared to a human with a media portrayal of amnesia.

In both cases for the brief amount of time between the integration and disassembly of the child's systems the mother can isolate them within her and carefully force them out, this is the purpose of slowing her processes. The most important thing during this is to maintain the system, so often there will be an exchange of members as the mother interacts with the system to keep aware of its placement within her as well as structurally maintaining it.

After successfully saving the child the mother will continue to stay in a depressive state, the child will be more susceptible to assimilation and will continue to be until a complete replacement of its members because of the mixture.


If no issues of absorbing their child occurs then the mother Hive-Person will continue to provide for their offspring until the size and complexity of the developing hive is satisfactory, this all really depends on the traditions of their lines, some raise a single child to a large size before letting them go, others raise many smaller ones and release them in a generally safe environment.
Of course there is a natural size as well at which the child will prefer to leave the mother.
Edited by colddigger, Nov 11 2011, 03:37 AM.
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colddigger
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Well that was covering more the child-rearing/childhood of a Hive-Person.

The sexual side of their reproduction I'm still wondering about, that requires a bit more understanding of what role the male member plays in the hive, I think I will go with the classic Hymenopteran death after mating.
No. I'll just leave their fate a mystery after mating for now.

Mate preference among the Hive-People again relies a bit on their line traditions, but generally size of hive compared to age of the queen are variables as to how attractive a hive is as a potential mate. A hive with a queen that can produce many members in a short amount of time is considered very desirable.

Once "agreement" has been established the two Hive-People exchange males, forcing the members out of the hive to whatever cluster is set up to accept them. Once accepted they are herded to the virgin queens.

This process can be easy for those who actively move about, they can simply exchange males along the communication line.
But it is much more difficult for those who reside within walls. They must set up protective clusters of members and "program" them for pick-up and retrieval of the males.
Edited by colddigger, Nov 12 2011, 02:57 AM.
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colddigger
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I should work out what the members actually are, just in general, and possibly their life cycle...

Next post I think I will do something like that, along with develop a few basic "cultures".

Does this thread make sense to anybody? I was told it should make sense.
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colddigger
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I really like the life cycle of the bee, age determines the role in that colony rather than role being decided from birth.
I actually had the idea of them being descended from colonial beetles, but I dunno. A ground wasp might be the best choice.
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Nanotyranus
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Ground wasps sound good. (Though I think that ants are ground wasps anyway.)
And for the assimilation problems, what about the mother releasing pheromones which makes the child know about the danger, and split up their members?
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colddigger
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Ants are kinda different, but close enough to wingless ground wasps. I like fuzzy things so I want them to be like bumblybees~ for now. Honestly I don't really care about what the members are, it's just an inconvenience to not know what they are, knowing what they are is mostly aesthetic and gives a little believability, perhaps just designing the basic life cycles of the members would be best.

Pheromones would interact with the members rather than the hive-person itself, and through the affected members then communicate with the hive-person, I think it would be kind of comparable to body language in us.
It can work as a means of communicating through members that have not become assimilated yet. Since they are not yet assimilated with the Mother and still associate with the Child they could react in a repulsed manner. Any members that have been assimilated will react as part of the Mother since it is not really the members that matter but the structure and "systems" that make up the Child.

"Systems" is kind of an abstract concept if you wanted to know, it's kind of the processing that the hive does, if you get what I'm saying. Members interacting in a certain manner that processes how to react to things and stuff, it can be built upon and result in very complex systems. I personally visualize groups of ants with points where it becomes more dense and processing occurs.


Thing is, only pheromone that could be used in this situation would be one that warns that the Mother will attack the Child, this would be derived from a social pheromone used during conflicts between two mature hives. It would have developed in social situations to lower the amount of "war" when a hive does not recognize the aggression pheromones in another hive, not to mention that those aggression pheromones would waft over into the other hive and trigger an escalating response.

The pheromones could be used as a means of pushing away the Child, but it would be a bad thing if during this time of "mental" damage, and the members working much on instinct rather than being controlled by what's left of the Child, for the members to become fearful and flee the area. So long as the queen is still alive it's still the offspring of the Mother and casting it away entirely to be devoured by some predator isn't so great.
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colddigger
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So far the two super-cultures that would exist are the Nomads and the Residers.

As their names suggest the Nomads are ultimately descended from a line that frequently moved from place to place. They do not rely on structures for protection and are very ruthless, making sure that anything in the area that may pose a threat to their members or themselves is immediately dealt with, with lethal force. They can reach huge sizes, with member numbers reaching tens of millions.
Young Nomads often travel in groups close together, their lines of communication ["Talk Face", as it is a length of the swarm which is used for communication with other Hive-People] spanning their own great lengths as they traverse their territory, it allows for quick communication.
This cooperation and closeness of the members often will gradually result in assimilation and union of the two(or more) people, this creates very massive Hive-People with very strange mentalities. Many Nomad lines consider this a natural occurrence to be honored.
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colddigger
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More on Nomads.

Though they often have a travelling partner or three with which they socialize extremely closely, to the point of assimilation as had been mentioned, that is not to say that there are individual Hive-People who choose to be more isolated, and lines [Clans, Tribes, whatever] which prefer more careful socializing and more passive lifestyles.

The more normal interaction between non-travelling-partners is to form a Talk Face and carefully separate themselves by it. As had been mentioned before, during these times they must be careful as their members are prone to aggression if their conversation becomes too heated and may result in a "war".

During "war"s the aggression pheromone causes a positive feedback among the Hive-Person's members, as they become more and more restless control over them weakens and if left unchecked they fall into a mode of violence where they must "protect the hive from the threat".

There are safe guards against this, the use of not so valuable members in the Talk Face allows them to abandon said members on the chances that they begin fighting. The Hive-People leave to prevent further losses and allow the fighting members to kill each other and tire themselves out.

Unlike aggression pheromones which are under control of the swarm, warning pheromones, as was previously mentioned in the reproduction bits, are a bit more controlled by the Hive-Person. A basic social response to when their swarm becomes agitated. A small group, even sometimes only one, of members is triggered to release the pheromone and scurry into the other Hive-Person and spread the chemical signal, this triggers the swarm of the other Hive-Person to move away, either carefully or quickly depending on the urgency.

Control over the length of the Talk Face is also a form of regulating conflict. When two Hive-People begin talking it's across a very small Talk Face, this results in slow conversation. As time passes the Talk Face gradually increases in length and so conversations become faster and more open and more is passed back and forth. It also results in greater stimulus for the two swarms and faster escalation of any pheromone triggering.
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colddigger
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http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-12/cu-dmi120811.php there's an example of a "system". Though, not quite what I was figuring it would be like for the personality style systems...
Edited by colddigger, Dec 8 2011, 06:14 PM.
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colddigger
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http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-secret-inner-life-of-bees

Though I think that the individual members would be a little dimmer than honey bees considering the hive-person is ultimately what drives them to do things...
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colddigger
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Do I still need to wite about the Residers? I think I still need to write about Residers....

They basically need to send ambassadors to communicate with one another, exchange males, and supply children with supplies.
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