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| Titan; A frozen paradise... | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 11 2011, 11:32 AM (2,426 Views) | |
| Orionite | Jul 19 2012, 03:11 AM Post #76 |
Primate Thinker
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I'm not going to be drawn to debate this, because I will end up joining JohnFaa on some forum vacation time. So I rest my case (regarding the debate and my points). I will still hold the same opinion. And I will treat the topic from that perspective, period. As for fantasy, you have Wizards of the coast. Feel free to take a look what fantasy is all about. This is scientific speculation, and I emphasize the second word of that term. You can call it fantasy, but its no different than what some scientists have speculated, and until proven wrong, they are right. |
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| T.Neo | Jul 19 2012, 12:12 PM Post #77 |
Translunar injection: TLI
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Orionite, there is no need to attempt to lecture me on the meaning of fantasy. Spoiler: click to toggle Furthermore; Spoiler: click to toggle Most of message spoilered to avoid derailing Russwallac's thread. If you want to contribute proper arguments to the discussion, I would very much appreciate. But if all you want to do is complain that 'it's just Russ; My concern isn't necessarily that life 'couldn't exist' at such low temperatures, but rather that such biochemistry would face considerable problems owing to its nature and the environment it would operate in. I appreciate the fact that you attempt to find explanations for your biochemistry- such as chemicals that allow reactions to proceed in Titanian conditions. However, what frustrates me is that you do not go on to explain these explanations; you simply state that Titanian organisms "use enzymes" but you don't go on to explain how such enzymes would work and how they would allow such organisms to live. That makes it very difficult to believe such enzymes, as well as quantify the challenges and advantages they would provide to life. Stating, for example, that "life could use methane as a solvent" is the astrobiological equivalent of going to a government, stating out of the blue that you can construct a space shuttle, and then immediately demanding $40 billion in R&D money. I know we all want interesting creatures. But the thing is, before we get to that point we have to address far more fundamental issues; issues that determine not only whether such organisms can exist, but also what they would be like. And that, admittedly, can be a tricky process. It's one of the reasons why the A New World thread is not filled with entries for all sorts of weird and wonderful creatures; I'm still figuring out the basics of the object they're living on (and I made my job difficult:I could have picked some nice solar analogue, and created my own planetary system for a world to orbit within. Instead, I picked a high metallicity late main-sequence star with an already existing planetary system and have been trying to shoehorn an abnormally massive moon into orbit around a gas giant. What was I thinking!?) From a planetological standpoint, I also have some (relatively minor) qualms with your project;
Bodies of liquid on titan don't cover all that much of the surface; there are no oceans, and bodies of liquid are better described as lakes or small seas. The largest known body, Kraken Mare, is thought to be roughly the size of the Caspian Sea. Which is not all that big, even when adjusting for the fact that Titan's surface area is only roughly equal to that of Afro-Eurasia. Titan is a desert world. In addition, it must be pointed out that the lakes are very flat, while simulations indicate that winds lower than 1 m/s should raise considerable waves across the surface (which has not been observed). The bodies of liquid might be quite viscous, almost like tar pits.
I became confused trying to figure out why this would be the case. To my knowledge, the nutrients raining down from the upper atmosphere are of equal distribution around the moon; indeed, the large dark areas near Titan's equator are thought to be deposits of organic materials. Whether these materials could be utilised usefully by your organisms is of course another matter entirely, and depends on the details of their specific biochemistry. It should also be noted that the 'dry' regions of Titan are not necessarily dessicating; due to the nature of the atmosphere, humidity can be quite high without rain occuring, and thus the events that create the fluvial erosion patterns seen near and at the Huygens landing site could be caused by periodic 'monsoon' downpours that occur sporadically.
Titan actually has quite benign surface relief. Not to say that it doesn't have mountains though- it does. But they're not as violently vertical as the ones on, say, Earth or Mars, at a maximum height of perhaps 1-2 kilometers. Topographic variation in general is mostly quite mild. In addition, due to the low gravity on Titan, scale height is probably fairly low, and pressure differences up at the summits of mountains probably aren't considerable. Edited by T.Neo, Jul 19 2012, 01:15 PM.
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| Tartarus | Jul 20 2012, 06:21 PM Post #78 |
Adult
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It's been a while since I read through this thread. However, looking at Russ' info on the scumsucker, and at the picture of it he recently posted I must say I quite like the concept. It seems like the sort of creature that could plausibly exist on an alien world, even if it is a world with such harsh conditions. A question to Russwallac: Will you be posting further, more detailed info on the scumsucker anytime soon? On the question of whether or not it is physically possible for life on Titan, I personally remain fairly neutral on the issue. However, it is actually not that relevant as this topic is a speculation. From what I've seen, this topic doesn't really seem to about whether life can exist on Titan but more on how Titanian lifeforms might look like IF they could exist. I realise the projects in this forum should try to base themselves on what is currently known to be scientifically plausible, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still all just exercises in "what if". It is doubtful that the lifeforms of any of the xenobiology projects actually exist in real life, doubtful the future will ever become exactly like that of any of the future evolution projects, and doubtful any of the alternate evolution projects paint an accurate picture of how things really would have turned out had some event(s) in prehistory gone differently. No matter how plausible they are still all constructs of the creators' imaginations, and no one here can truly say with absolute accuracy how any alien or future lifeform would be like. We can, however, come up with plausible "what ifs". |
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| T.Neo | Jul 20 2012, 07:20 PM Post #79 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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The problem is that the details of biochemistry and suchlike do play a heavy role in defining what life is like. |
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| Orionite | Jul 21 2012, 03:04 AM Post #80 |
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Primate Thinker
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Maybe we can speculate about future evolution of life forms that may live on Titan, or, for T.Neo's plausibility's sake, appear in future on Titan. My argument is - The sun is going to evolve and expand in the next 5 billion years. During this expansion, at least a fifth of this time period it will increase significantly in brightness/luminosity/radiation. Saturn is far enough not to get seriously baked like the Earth might be at this point, but its also near enough to get enough of the new wave of heat, that may heat up Titan significantly enough to allow for temparatures close to what we have on the Arctic (i think/I hope so). So, maybe we could look at this issue from a future evolutionary standpoint? Life forms that don't exist yet, in these conditions, but might in the future. From what I have been reading, the heat is going to be enough to turn Europa into a dwarf water world. I would believe enough heat would travel to Saturn and its moons as well. What do you guys think of this idea? |
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| Orionite | Jul 21 2012, 03:06 AM Post #81 |
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Primate Thinker
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I'm just saying this as the strongest argument against complex life is that its too cold there. I'm thinking if we get closer to zero celsius, that chances for complex life increase exponentially. |
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| colddigger | Jul 21 2012, 03:12 AM Post #82 |
Joke's over! Love, Parasky
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I think that would cause the methane to vaporize and form a greenhouse effect, the water would also melt... I'm not sure what else, I'm actually not terribly informed of what is on Titan... |
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| Orionite | Jul 21 2012, 04:28 AM Post #83 |
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Primate Thinker
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I don't think it would be a serious greenhouse effect, as the heat is not going to be enormous, and the majority of the heat would probably come down as warm droplets in rain. I don't think it would pass the thick atmosphere any other way. I also think that the nitrogen might play ya role here. |
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| T.Neo | Jul 21 2012, 01:03 PM Post #84 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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There are two things to recognise. The first is that the outer system bodies are rich in ices- chemicals such as water. As such, most moons of Jupiter and Saturn are either composed of a homogenous mix of 'ices' and rocky materials, or if they had a warmer history, are differentiated- meaning that they have rocky cores, and a mostly icy mantle (that is potentially liquid at depth- in other words, liquid water may be present), and therefore a mostly icy crust. If you were to try to take a rock sample from Titan back to Earth, once you got home you'd be left with a container full of water (and a bit of other stuff, like some 'dust' and organic materials) unless you took care to insulate it. So Titan, if it got warmer, would be an ocean world. The whole crust would melt and there would be no solid surface. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but such a scenario does raise certain interesting challenges for life. The other issue is that right now, Titan can hold onto its thick atmosphere because out at Saturn orbit, things are very cold. Increase insolation and you need more mass to hold onto an atmosphere. This gas retention plot may be helpful (also see here). Atmospheric retention however could depend on various factors, such as exosphere temperature, the presence of a significant magnetic field (Titan doesn't have one, and is within Saturn's for only a portion of its orbit), and the flux of the solar wind or particles trapped within the parent planet's magnetosphere. |
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| Orionite | Jul 21 2012, 02:23 PM Post #85 |
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Primate Thinker
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Interesting points Neo, but would they nullify chances for life? Especially in a liquid environment, an ocean world (made of exotic liquids)? There is more chance for life in a liquid environment than a frozen one. |
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| T.Neo | Jul 21 2012, 03:19 PM Post #86 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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I can't say whether it would nullify the chances for life- I can't even say how Titan will evolve in such a scenario. That would require simulations and mathematical modelling on the issue. I'm just mentioning possible effects. While liquid water containing a lot of prebiotic chemicals would be a likely environment for abiogenesis, we're not looking for mere simple organisms, but complex life. How that would evolve in a situation where no substrate or seafloor exists in the euphotic zone is unknown. |
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| colddigger | Jul 21 2012, 04:10 PM Post #87 |
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Joke's over! Love, Parasky
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Slow moving sifters? Nets of photosynthetic cells? If you really think that Titan could be home to single celled life with metabolisms like those of Earthly cells then it is not too difficult to believe complex life can arise as well. It would certainly give the impression of an oceanic desert world, like the open seas on Earth but with even less nutrient circulation.. |
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| Harmonee | May 11 2013, 06:50 PM Post #88 |
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Newborn
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Just like to bring this to the forums attention in case some have not read it. http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45bd5c0041e98 |
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