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Ideas and Concepts.
Topic Started: Aug 17 2011, 03:32 PM (8,762 Views)
lamna
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We all have cool ideas for things we'd love to do or make, art, novels, films and so on. But unless you actually have something to show us such as concept art or a first draft I think you should discuss it here so we don't have dozens of topics of people talking about their cool ideas.
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T.Neo
 
Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna?
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Flisch
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I had a pretty interesting idea recently when I "researched" butterfly metamorphosis. So apparently the organs of the caterpillar are liquified (not sure if it's meant literally) and reform into the organs of a butterfly. Also since the two lifestyles could hardly be more different, I guess even the brain undergoes such a drastic change, that you could hardly call it the same "consciousness" (Not gonna debate consciousness in insects with you) anymore.

So, what if a sophont would have evolved from creatures similar to butterflies, creatures that undergo a complete metamorphosis. There would be two possible ways for this. Either the larvae are animalistic and less "sophont-like" as human babies, but instead more like pets from the intelligence level, while later the creature evolves into a sophont. (laaaame)

The other possibility, which I think is far more interesting is if the sophont is actually the larval stage, which later evolves into a winged form and uses the energy on flight instead of intelligence. This would mean that their "adult form" is more animal like. I think that would have some very fascinating results for their culture, especially their belief of the afterlife.




On a related note, I was thinking of the possibility of humans as being an oddball among sophonts for being naked. Considering sophonts are more likely to evolve from warm-blooded animals which in turn are usually covered by isolating appendages like fur or feathers, it would make sense if the majority of other sophonts would actually retain their fur/feathers when evolving sapience.

This would also mean that humans might be the "uglies" in the sophont society, as I would imagine hairy sophonts find naked creatures (especially naked creatures with just a few hairs) hideous, similar to how we find Naked Mole Rats ugly.

This would also be an ironic twist for all the aliens in movies depicted as being "sexy" and humanoid. Aliens watching our sci-fi movies might laugh or vomit. :x
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Kamidio
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Flisch
Oct 6 2011, 08:22 AM
On a related note, I was thinking of the possibility of humans as being an oddball among sophonts for being naked. Considering sophonts are more likely to evolve from warm-blooded animals which in turn are usually covered by isolating appendages like fur or feathers, it would make sense if the majority of other sophonts would actually retain their fur/feathers when evolving sapience.
Naked means a lack of clothing. Now, seeing as we have the same number of hairs as the gorilla, I doubt you can call us hairless. Just "slighty less covered".
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T.Neo
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I just don't get the whole "devolving into nonsapience" thing. The whole reason you want to keep old people around is because they gather knowledge and to sophonts, knowledge is useful.

Also, there are likely to be far more drastic differences between us and other sophonts. Fur is less important.

Sexy, scantily clad dinosauroid-esque men! With huge wattles!

Hell no, I'm not going to watch a film with such devolved unintelligence. I don't stand for that kind of sexism. :rolleyes:
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Flisch
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T.Neo
Oct 6 2011, 06:46 PM
I just don't get the whole "devolving into nonsapience" thing. The whole reason you want to keep old people around is because they gather knowledge and to sophonts, knowledge is useful.

I would wager that reproduction is even more useful. :V

Plus, it's not about usefulness. It's about evolution. If the brain becomes restructured during a full metamorphosis due to entirely different morphology and ecological role, then it's somewhat reasonable to assume that even if sapience evolved in the larvae state for whatever reason the brain will get "overridden" during metamorphosis and lose its sapience state. The adult form would be more like evolutionary baggage, rather than having "devolved" sapience. It's basically a gigantic, autonomous sexual organ. Its only role is to propagate the species and to fill another role in the ecosystem to prevent competition with its larval state.

It's like saying "our hands have evolved opposable thumbs, our feet should have done the same, so we could grasp double as many things" while totally ignoring the fact that feet are used for walking and thus have an entirely different function. [/blahblahblahstupidexample]

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Hell no, I'm not going to watch a film with such devolved unintelligence. I don't stand for that kind of sexism.

What the? How is anything that I said sexist/unintelligent?
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T.Neo
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I would wager that reproduction is even more useful. :V

Plus, it's not about usefulness. It's about evolution. If the brain becomes restructured during a full metamorphosis due to entirely different morphology and ecological role, then it's somewhat reasonable to assume that even if sapience evolved in the larvae state for whatever reason the brain will get "overridden" during metamorphosis and lose its sapience state. The adult form would be more like evolutionary baggage, rather than having "devolved" sapience. It's basically a gigantic, autonomous sexual organ. Its only role is to propagate the species and to fill another role in the ecosystem to prevent competition with its larval state.

It's like saying "our hands have evolved opposable thumbs, our feet should have done the same, so we could grasp double as many things" while totally ignoring the fact that feet are used for walking and thus have an entirely different function. [/blahblahblahstupidexample]


Sapience would not exist if it did not propagate the species, ergo it is (in its own way) useful to reproduction.

I don't really get why sapience would evolve in the "larval state" and not the "adult state". Ok, sure... there are some insects that spend most of their life in larval form and then metamorphose into relatively short-lived breeding adults, but this strikes me more as a specialist strategy and not necessarily something conducive to more complex, highly intensive organisms.

It would make more sense to have a "low investment" larval state and then a "high investment" adult state. Maybe, I dunno. Maybe adult butterflies and stuff are actually "high investment" organisms.

Avoiding competition with your young sounds inexorably less useful to me than assisting them, but maybe that is just me thinking too much like an engineer...

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What the? How is anything that I said sexist/unintelligent?


No! Not you, I'm referring to hypothetical, sexed-up, dumbed-down alien popular culture. :P
Edited by T.Neo, Oct 6 2011, 07:55 PM.
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Kamidio
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Oct 6 2011, 07:54 PM
just me thinking too much like an engineer...




No! Not you, I'm referring to hypothetical, sexed-up, dumbed-down alien popular culture. :P
You're an engineer? That means you solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?" because that would fall within the perview of the conudrums of philosphy. You solve practical problems. For example, "How am I going to stop an elegantly designed skyscraper from collapsing in on me and giving me a structurally superfluous new behind?" The answer? Use a pillar. And if that don't work? Use more pillar? Like this 13 meter tall, marble paved little ol' number designed by you, built by you. And I best hope, not constructed near me.



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Oh yeah, that is totally sexed up. :rolleyes:
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colddigger
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Sexy, scantily clad dinosauroid-esque men! With huge wattles!


HELLZ YEAH

What I imagine from the use of butterflies as an example and the idea of a sophont larval stage nonsophont adult stage would be that the larvae require a high level of cognition to survive into what I can only assume is a pupae stage. This said I can easily say that the larvae can be highly social since there are many grubs and caterpillars that move en mass, such a lifestyle could result in knowledge being passed along and so on and so forth.

The adults of course would be sent into a different niche which required little cognition and so followed their old thoughtless ways.

Personally I'm intrigued by the idea of both stages being sapient.
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Kamidio
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I had a concept for a world where phrases of exasperation were real things. Like Holy Mackeral, Holy Fucking Shit, Mother of God, et cetera.
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Russwallac
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That would be... interesting.
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Flisch
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T.Neo
Oct 6 2011, 07:54 PM
Sapience would not exist if it did not propagate the species, ergo it is (in its own way) useful to reproduction.
Nope, intelligence doesn't propagate the species, but it helps the organism to survive and thus pass down its genes. Sexual organs however DO propagate the species. :T

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I don't really get why sapience would evolve in the "larval state" and not the "adult state". Ok, sure... there are some insects that spend most of their life in larval form and then metamorphose into relatively short-lived breeding adults, but this strikes me more as a specialist strategy and not necessarily something conducive to more complex, highly intensive organisms.

It would make more sense to have a "low investment" larval state and then a "high investment" adult state. Maybe, I dunno. Maybe adult butterflies and stuff are actually "high investment" organisms.

Imagine a species of butterflies with caterpillars that form groups for protection. The butterflies however don't live in a group and are loners. Now if the intelligence of both stages would increase the caterpillars would have a greater gain from the new intelligence as they can put it to a use to interact with each other. Since the adult butterfly rarely interacts with others of its own species except for mating which doesn't require a high level of intelligence, then the energy put into its brain is wasted. Evolution will favour those individuals (or populations) that have a high degree of teamwork in their larval stage but at the same time require less energy in their adult stage, especially since the larva now has to gather food for BOTH metamorphosis and a brain. Of course, if you were to design the creature, you'd probably choose the adult form for the intelligent stage (though that might be because we're just used to it), but evolution has to work with what it got. It certainly won't change or even reverse the behaviour of both stages to create a more "pleasing" sophont. As long as the energy budget is balanced I don't see any reason for this to be impossible.

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Avoiding competition with your young sounds inexorably less useful to me than assisting them, but maybe that is just me thinking too much like an engineer...

You could use the very same reasoning to say that humans shouldn't die. Imagine the larval state is that sophont's "life" and the imago stage merely an appendix to that, similar to how we die, they are reborn. Of course the older larvae will serve as some kind of elders. Maybe due to their sheer size of all the food they ate and the fact that they need to move less in order to preserve energy for the metamorphosis I could even see them becoming less physically productive over time, but rather care about the newly hatched larva* as well as organizing the group and taking on administrative roles. The life of one larva would be in essence not that different from a human's life. They would also undergo childhood, adolescence "adulthood" and uhh... elderness. It's simply that instead of withering over time their body instead prepares for the upcoming metamorphosis. And another very fascinating aspect is that as a sophont, they never die of old age. (Though I guess turning into an imago would be their equivalent complete with mourning and "funerals".)

*This could even imply that the imagos would lay their eggs near settlements or even right next to "elder" larvae.
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Kamidio
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Flisch
Oct 7 2011, 08:32 AM
T.Neo
Oct 6 2011, 07:54 PM
Sapience would not exist if it did not propagate the species, ergo it is (in its own way) useful to reproduction.
Nope, intelligence doesn't propagate the species, but it helps the organism to survive and thus pass down its genes. Sexual organs however DO propagate the species. :T


He never said it did propatgate the species. He said it was "...ergo it is (in its own way) useful to reproduction..." Thus, he is right, you are wrong, stop talking about it. This is for concepts of fiction, like fantasy and romance, not spec evo. You wanna spec about this? Go to General Spec.

tl;dr: He has a point, stop shitposting about it.
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colddigger
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Meh, sapience would allow the larvae to survive, which in turn allows the species a higher chance of continuing on and individuals a higher chance of reproduction.

Keep in mind that although it is a larva that hatches from the egg the larval stage is hardly comparable to being a baby, it is simply all stages excluding the sexually mature stage and the pupa.
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Flisch
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Oct 7 2011, 10:02 AM
Flisch
Oct 7 2011, 08:32 AM
T.Neo
Oct 6 2011, 07:54 PM
Sapience would not exist if it did not propagate the species, ergo it is (in its own way) useful to reproduction.
Nope, intelligence doesn't propagate the species, but it helps the organism to survive and thus pass down its genes. Sexual organs however DO propagate the species. :T


He never said it did propatgate the species.
T.Neo
Oct 6 2011, 07:54 PM
Sapience would not exist if it did not propagate the species, ergo it is (in its own way) useful to reproduction.
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Russwallac
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Um... Anyway, moving on...

I had an idea a while back for a possible (and scientifically credible) "alien invasion" film. Basically, a new Moon mission leads to the discovery of an obviously artificial structure on the Moon. This structure is dated back to the Permian era; and this causes a huge uproar as scientists try to find an explanation. In the meantime, some astronaut futzing around with the thing accidentally activates it, and it begins remotely hijacking satellites and gathering information. This goes on for about a week, and then the device sends out a powerful signal and shuts down. This signal activates a huge fleet of ships stationed at various points around the solar system, and they launch an assault on Earth. Of course, all hell breaks loose. :evilsmile:
What makes this idea unique is that the ships aren't alien; they're from a Permian-era race that went extinct during (or perhaps caused) the P-Tr extinction. The ships were programmed to defend the planet against possible extraterrestrial attack, and they register human technology as alien. So basically, I took the old alien invasion idea and turned it on its head.

What do you think? Is it (a) a good story, and (b) scientifically possible?
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colddigger
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I really like the concept, but the idea of a sapient species from the permian eludes me. There needs to be explanation as to what happened to them and why there was yet any evidence of their existence found. Though in the story it can just be "assumptions" and "possibilities" thought up by the people.
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