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Ideas and Concepts.
Topic Started: Aug 17 2011, 03:32 PM (8,766 Views)
lamna
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We all have cool ideas for things we'd love to do or make, art, novels, films and so on. But unless you actually have something to show us such as concept art or a first draft I think you should discuss it here so we don't have dozens of topics of people talking about their cool ideas.
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Kamidio
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LlamaunOiurrrught.

Now let's all talk about the concept of a world dominated by our fursonas. NOW.
Edited by Kamidio, Aug 31 2011, 07:07 PM.
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Flisch
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By definition, everything that is consciously made by humans is not natural, its artificial.

Though I guess you can extend that definition to all sophonts.
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Kamidio
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Sep 1 2011, 08:18 AM
By definition, everything that is consciously made by humans is not natural, its artificial.

Though I guess you can extend that definition to all sophonts.
Actually, I think Lamna, a moderator said to drop it.

So drop it or I'll be tempted to report the next person who contributes to Artificial v.s. Natural Debate.
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TAXESbutNano
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Well, mine is a big scaly purple and brown dinosaur. I'm making one with grey feathers.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

The fursona thing isn't exactly on topic either Fakey. ;)



But to get this back on topic, I've been wanting to get back to writing for awhile and I've been tossing an idea for a story/novel around in my head for awhile.

I've been thinking a lot about alternate history lately after seeing "Watchmen" and watching a program on Spike called "Alternate History" (the episode I saw focused on what would happen if the Nazis won WW2 and took over America in the name of the Third Reich).

Anyway, I'm just as equally fascinated by Roman history and all that, particularly focused on the Republic and Empire phases. So, as a result, I've been postulating a scenario where Carthage (led by Hannibal) defeats Rome in the Second Punic War. This, combined with the fact that I believe Carthage would conquer the West Coast of Africa, Arabia, and Greece rather than trying to conquer Gaulia, Germania, and Brittania, plants an interesting scenario in my mind.

A white person (yes, I did specify white because I think that, since Carthage would conquer Africa rather than Europe, the dominant skin tone on Earth would be black and the slave situation might be reversed (basically, Africans (and Asians, specifically the Japanese) conquer the Americas and use European people (specifically from Northern Europe and Russia) as slaves))) somehow (I don't really care how; what matters is that it happened) is sent back-and-sidewards through time to a Carthage that has just defeated Rome.

Anyway, periodically throughout the story, the man inexplicably goes forward in time to important things in this world's history, becoming a slave quite a few times. I'm imagining something similar to the old TV show "Quantum Leap" in regards to his inexplicably jumping through time and something similar to either "Sliders" or "Fringe" in regards to exploring the other universe (I'm leaning more towards a "Fringe"y way of exploring it though).

Anyway, I don't really care about how the character can jump backward, forward, and sidewise through time; that's more of a plot device than anything (sort of like the time machine in H.G. Wells's "The Time Machine" or the main character in "Kindred").

What I really care about is how the alternate history would turn out if Carthage had defeated Rome in the Second Punic War. Are the few ideas that I have proposed plausible enough to work or are they seriously misguided? Being new to the whole field of alternate history, I'm not really sure what works and what doesn't in terms of plausibility so if I could get a plausibility check or idea maker, that'd be great!
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Zoroaster
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I like it Canis... I was very disappointed when Hannibal's 15 year rampage up and down the Italian peninsular came to an end... I would have loved to have seen Carthage crush Rome (but then I wouldn't exist!).

But as for the black VS white thing? I doubt it. While the Carthaginians were born in Africa, ultimately they were a white(ish) Semitic group of people, who orignally hailed from the Levant (Phoenicia) - sure they allied with the Numidians (probably black, and probably related to Bedouins), but don't forget the Numidians were only too happy to abandon Carthage and jump over to the Romans.

Also - don't forget Carthage's massive influence on the Iberian peninsular, where they fought against, but also allied with (or more appropriately, employed as mercenaries) Ibero/Celts (many of whom were in Hannibal's army that crossed the Alps). The city / town of Cartagena in Spain still retains its name - and was spread to the New World.

Many Greek city states (most of the Southern Italian cities were actually Greek, e.g. Naples) were only too happy to side with Hannibal against the Romans.

So, for this to work, you'd have to keep the Numidians on side - hmmm.... And also, the vast bulk of Carthage's army were mercenaries - who are only ready to switch sides or desert... you'd have to overcome that limitation, perhaps IRON discipline for deserters and MASSIVE remuneration for loyalty? I tend to think that slavery, if it continued, would be mixed, i.e. white skinned Europeans AND dark skinned Africans. For many centuries, slaves were mixed races, "thralls". In Rome many of the slaves were Gauls and Germans. In Northern Europe, many of the Germanic peoples kept members of subjected peoples, captives from raids, as slaves, e.g. Vikings kept Franks, Angles, Celts etc as slaves "back home in Norway".

Fascinating stuff Canis - can't wait to see more of this from you....
Edited by Zoroaster, Sep 1 2011, 08:51 PM.
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Kamidio
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How about a story taking place in a world where Henry VIII had a son with Catherine rather than Bloody Mary?
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lamna
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The race thing is also a bit iffy to me. Aside from the ramblings of black supremacists, pretty much everyone agrees that North Africa has been predominately non-black for a very long time. Africa is a really big place. It's like saying because they live on the same continent as the Chinese that Indians would come to dominate the world.
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The reason that Black people got associated with slavery in the first place is Europeans did not want to buy Christians from the Arabs, and taking white slaves just was not worth the risk. So they focused on Black Africans and European slaving inherited that tradition from them. For a very long time slavery had little or nothing to do with race.

There are a few stories dealing with Carthage triumphant, the one I know most about is Delenda Est, but I have not read it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delenda_Est

I'll offer what help I can, but from the reign of George III to present is the only era I know fairly well, and even then it's mostly focused on warfare.
Edited by lamna, Sep 2 2011, 04:29 AM.
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Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna?
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Kamidio
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Why not buy the white slaves to free them?
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lamna
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When you have a perfectly good excuse to slaughter Muslims and save money?
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Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna?
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Magoo and lamna: Thanks for your compliments/comments!

And yeah, the race-slavery thing was kind of thrown in last minute. Just something I wanted to toss around. I knew the slavery thing was not based on race at the beginning, but I knew that it did turn into it around the 1600s if I'm not mistaken. Just wasn't sure why. Thank you for clarifying.

Yeah, the Greeks for the most part didn't like the Romans so they'd be more of a side-with-whoever-is-against-Rome kind of deal, like you said. So I figure that once Carthage wins, Greece will either go back into its shell-of-sorts and wait for Carthage to take them over OR join with Carthage pretty much immediately after the Second Punic War and become a force to be reckoned with around the Mediterranean.

Yeah, I'd like as much help with this as I can get from anyone with any good historical knowledge (preferably about Roman history but it doesn't really matter to me) so I can try to get this world as accurate as possible.

What I'm mostly wondering about is how the rest of the world would develop if Carthage won. Europe would be easy to figure out (well, not easy, but easier) but the rest of the world would kind of be a challenge.

Would America be discovered sooner in this world? Would Japan or China become a larger power than in our world, possibly colonizing Australia and/or some of the Americas? What would become of the American natives, namely the Incas and Mayans/Aztecs (depending on when America is discovered)? What would be the dominant power in this world in the modern era? And would this universe be less advanced, more advanced, or just as advanced as our own?

You know, I think I might as well start my own topic for this here so it doesn't clutter up this particular thread of Cafe Cosmique.
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Ànraich
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lamna
Aug 31 2011, 12:29 PM
Yes, but even if humans were as nomadic as all that they still had tents and temporary shelters and so forth. I don't think any group of humans just lives outside.
Wrong. There's several tribes I've read about in Africa that build huts but don't even go into them unless it's raining. And they never sleep in them, they consider that gross. I think it was in Botswana.
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lamna
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Wrong. There's several tribes I've read about in Africa that build huts but don't even go into them unless it's raining. And they never sleep in them, they consider that gross. I think it was in Botswana.

I might be able to believe that about French Africa, but Botswana? You'll have to back if you want my eyebrow to lower and me to take you seriously.
Maybe that's what the Tswana said about someone else, but it does not mean it's true. Most of the well known names for Indian tribes mean "Baby-eating backs-stabbing bastards" in their neighbours languages, and everyone in New Guinea is convinced the tribe in the next valley are head-hunters.
Even if it is true, they still do build shelters and are clearly a deviation from the norm. 19th-21st century Botswana is a long way from where and where modern humans first emerged.

As for China discovering the new world? Maybe. But part of me doubts in. For a long time China was the most advanced place in the world, and for an even longer time they convinced themselves that they were the most advanced. China was very insular, it thought it was perfect, so why bother with the barbarians? Also importantly, China was big, unified and dominated is neighbours. Europe on the other hand was fractured into dozens of completing states, each looking for the edge that would help them in the next war while China could be confident in it's superiority. Japan was even more insular, no more special than the other small states in the region. The Khmer or Vietnamese could easily have become more important.

If you want Asians in America, my recommendation would be to split China up into 2 or more states, add some plagues and disasters and generally encourage competition.
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Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna?
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seascorpion
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As for China discovering the new world? Maybe. But part of me doubts in. For a long time China was the most advanced place in the world, and for an even longer time they convinced themselves that they were the most advanced. China was very insular, it thought it was perfect, so why bother with the barbarians? Also importantly, China was big, unified and dominated is neighbours. Europe on the other hand was fractured into dozens of completing states, each looking for the edge that would help them in the next war while China could be confident in it's superiority. Japan was even more insular, no more special than the other small states in the region. The Khmer or Vietnamese could easily have become more important.


chinaChina
Edited by seascorpion, Sep 2 2011, 07:02 PM.
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Ànraich
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lamna
Sep 2 2011, 05:59 PM
As for China discovering the new world? Maybe. But part of me doubts in. For a long time China was the most advanced place in the world, and for an even longer time they convinced themselves that they were the most advanced. China was very insular, it thought it was perfect, so why bother with the barbarians?
The same reason you bother anybody; to enslave them and take their gold. Maybe the Chinese would say "so what" to the discovery of, say, Alaska. But nobody says "so what" to finding a land like South America; where the natives literally pave the city streets with gold (Incan cities were famous for shimmering in gold).

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Wrong. There's several tribes I've read about in Africa that build huts but don't even go into them unless it's raining. And they never sleep in them, they consider that gross. I think it was in Botswana.

I might be able to believe that about French Africa, but Botswana? You'll have to back if you want my eyebrow to lower and me to take you seriously.
Maybe that's what the Tswana said about someone else, but it does not mean it's true. Most of the well known names for Indian tribes mean "Baby-eating backs-stabbing bastards" in their neighbours languages, and everyone in New Guinea is convinced the tribe in the next valley are head-hunters.
Even if it is true, they still do build shelters and are clearly a deviation from the norm. 19th-21st century Botswana is a long way from where and where modern humans first emerged.


See it wasn't Botswana, it was Namibia. Way off, I guess. Anyways, they're called the Himba. And the group I was reading about is more traditional than others, but you're right for the most part humans don't live outside. Anymore. Somebody invented the first hut, you know. And the first tent. And the idea of making something to be inside of so you're not at nature's mercy.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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