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| floating fish; can they be without being gasbags? | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 8 2011, 07:39 PM (1,551 Views) | |
| trex841 | Jul 8 2011, 07:39 PM Post #1 |
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ok, let me explan the discription. i had an idea. an idea for flying fish...![]() ...no, not like that, these fish float in thin air, and only need to use limbs for movment. now one thing i knew i needed to do is change the fins, because they would never work in the thinner medium of the atmosphere, so the fins are bigger and have two rear fins to propel forwared with. and, of course, i had to get them into the air, so i had the swim bladders evolve to be able to fill with hydrogen, thus making them lighter that air. that's where the problem comes in. i wanted these fish to look like fish, but i dont know how much gas it take's to lift them off he ground, or if the amount needed would exceed the body's mass, thus turning them into a living baloon. i ask you, dose this idea work? |
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F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team. At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting. (And this is just the spec related stuff) | |
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| Empyreon | Jul 9 2011, 09:48 AM Post #2 |
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Are you plausible?
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The thing to do is calculate how much lift is necessary for the mass (weight) of your fish, and then the volume of hydrogen necessary to create that lift. The buoyant mass of a cubic meter of hydrogen is -1.202 kg: that's the pull upwards. In broad, general terms, that's about enough to pick up a rainbow trout that's 18-20 inches (~50 cm). So you've got a fish half a meter long that has a meter wide balloon on it. That doesn't scale easily, but I think that in order for a fish to float without having an obvious flotation bag it would have to be very small. |
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Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
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| trex841 | Jul 9 2011, 09:56 AM Post #3 |
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hemm...i can work with that. |
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F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team. At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting. (And this is just the spec related stuff) | |
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| Sigmund Nastrazzurro | Jul 9 2011, 10:27 AM Post #4 |
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Curator, Institute of Furahan Biology
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I was just working on some programs and illustrations for a post on the 'physics of ballonts' on my blog (http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/). It will discuss matters such as how large a balloon has to be to lift a given mass, as Empyrion did, but with some additional thoughts on how this is effected by the composition of an atmosphere. I expect to post that next weekend. |
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"Never again, we vowed, would we let Natural History become a mere part of Human History" (Souren Nyoroge) Visit the planet Furaha website and the corresponding blog | |
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| Empyreon | Jul 9 2011, 10:31 AM Post #5 |
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Are you plausible?
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Awesome! That will definitely shed light on the subject here! |
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Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
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| colddigger | Jul 9 2011, 11:30 AM Post #6 |
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Joke's over! Love, Parasky
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http://images.wikia.com/pikmin/images/d/d6/Puffyblowhog.jpg reminds me how much I love the blowhog group in pikmin... |
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Oh Fine. Oh hi you! Why don't you go check out the finery that is SGP?? v Don't click v Spoiler: click to toggle | |
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| trex841 | Jul 9 2011, 02:45 PM Post #7 |
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Sigmund Nastrazzurro: i didn't know you were on this site, that's awsome! i check your blog every day. colddigger: i love pikmins focus on biology. |
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F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team. At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting. (And this is just the spec related stuff) | |
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| Sigmund Nastrazzurro | Jul 10 2011, 02:39 AM Post #8 |
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Curator, Institute of Furahan Biology
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I look around regularly here, but do not post much. It is hard enough finding the time to work on my own blog, which is why I only post there once every two weeks. Thanks for checking there every day though! |
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"Never again, we vowed, would we let Natural History become a mere part of Human History" (Souren Nyoroge) Visit the planet Furaha website and the corresponding blog | |
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| trex841 | Jul 10 2011, 09:41 AM Post #9 |
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your welcome
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F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team. At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting. (And this is just the spec related stuff) | |
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| Sigmund Nastrazzurro | Jul 15 2011, 03:15 AM Post #10 |
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Curator, Institute of Furahan Biology
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I just put up the promised post on 'ballonts' (which is what I call ballooning animals). There was more to explore than I thought, so there will be another post on the subject. That will not necessarily be the next post in two weeks, as this type of post takes a lot more time than the ones on art. http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2011/07/ballooning-animals-and-newtonian.html |
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"Never again, we vowed, would we let Natural History become a mere part of Human History" (Souren Nyoroge) Visit the planet Furaha website and the corresponding blog | |
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| trex841 | Jul 15 2011, 07:30 AM Post #11 |
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yes, i have seen this post, and even if some of it blew over my head, i got the basic idea. floating fish can never come to pass... but maby, just maby, if all the conditions are right, we could get something like... ![]() SKYWHALES DAMMIT! |
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F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team. At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting. (And this is just the spec related stuff) | |
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| T.Neo | Jul 15 2011, 06:55 PM Post #12 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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The problems behind ballonts are a real pity, they are just such an interesting concept. Maybe they are, in physics terms, saved for planets that have soup for atmospheres... I do question their darwinian viability though. We see multiple instances of flight on Earth, and multiple instances of the use of buoyancy in aquatic environments, but nothing that even half-approaches being an atmospheric ballont. Maybe evolving into a ballont is pretty unlikely; if they have to start small (which most animals do), then physics will work against them. I can't help thinking that they would have to have some sort of other use for a balloon membrane other than as a pure lifting device, in order to 'set them up' for plausibly becoming a ballont. Edited by T.Neo, Jul 15 2011, 07:05 PM.
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| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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| trex841 | Jul 15 2011, 09:13 PM Post #13 |
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i can't help but think that the reason we don't see them is because the balloon is a giant open target, i mean one sharp point and BOOM! |
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F.I.N.D.R Field Incident Logs A comprehensive list of all organisms, artifacts, and alternative worlds encountered by the foundation team. At the present time, concepts within are inconsistent and ever shifting. (And this is just the spec related stuff) | |
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| colddigger | Jul 16 2011, 12:17 PM Post #14 |
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Joke's over! Love, Parasky
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This was all assuming the bladder wasn't expandable right? |
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Oh Fine. Oh hi you! Why don't you go check out the finery that is SGP?? v Don't click v Spoiler: click to toggle | |
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| T.Neo | Jul 16 2011, 08:48 PM Post #15 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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How would that help? I also wonder, if there is anything remotely like mylar in nature. And what in nature might be somewhat suitable, at least, to forming the skin of an atmospheric ballont. |
| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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2:23 PM Jul 11