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Are you planning to emigrate?
Topic Started: Jun 5 2011, 05:11 AM (3,438 Views)
Ànraich
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L'évolution Spéculative est moi

Holbenilord
Jun 9 2011, 02:18 PM
"Research and statistics have shown that guns intensify crime situations, and increase the likelihood of a more violent or lethal outcome."

See this link- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_world
Guns are legal in all of the top offenders
So? The rise in the consumptions of donuts has coincided with the rise of the global temperature. But we all know that donuts don't cause global warming.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Holben
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lamna
Jun 9 2011, 03:13 PM
But they must be safe, they are not even on the list. Good god, I'm glad I did not go to Estonia on holiday, that would have been a disaster. Nope, I'll have to go enjoy Basra instead.
Just because they neglect to give data... we can see how prevalent guns and death are there...

Quote:
 
Holben, it's everyone vs you. We win.
Damn, fallacies! Appeal to the masses...
Also, everyone? Seriously? Parasky. And maybe you, but this proves absolutely nothing. Other than you like the USA.

Quote:
 
Guess what else you can buy here. Grenades, Disarmed tanks, fighter jets, and flamthrowers. And those disarmed tanks, jets, and flamethrowers are pretty easy to fix.
Uh-huh. So that's why everyone there has a tank/jet fighter! :rolleyes:

Quote:
 
So? The rise in the consumptions of donuts has coincided with the rise of the global temperature. But we all know that donuts don't cause global warming.
Completely different, that's an association. This is a causal relationship. Would you deny that an increased quantity of people correlates with an increased amount of land needed to feed them?

No. You're all being thoroughly non-successful.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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lamna
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Still, you're not going to have people giving up their right to hunt humanely and effectively, defend themselves and shoot for sport just because of that, assuming it's correct.

Like how the convenience of the automobile is worth all the thousands of deaths, injuries and damage to property they cause each year. We'd be safer if only trained professionals used motor cars, but that ain't happening.
Edited by lamna, Jun 10 2011, 04:24 PM.
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seascorpion
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the world would be better off if you needed a license to have kids. isn't going to happen though. its kind of wierd how you need a license to go put a hook in the river and catch a fish, but you don't need a license to bring another human being into existence and raise them properly.
plus i agree with holben, to an extant. theres obviously a connection with high crime rates in the USA and the ease you can get a gun with. I don't think its the sole issue. but its a large part of it.
also, the argument about criminals having guns isn't really that solid. which do you think is easier, buying a glock (legally) and then shooting a major government official, or smuggling in a colt 45 via a private plane, which'll have to land in an unknown and entirely deserted airstrip.
the first is what it takes a mentally ill person in america to get a gun in the USA. the second is what it takes a mentally ill person to get a gun in Australia.
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lamna
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The vast majority of guns used in crimes, in the US at least, are nought brought from a legal supplier.

Which has little to do with emigration.
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Ànraich
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Holbenilord
Jun 10 2011, 02:49 PM
Would you deny that an increased quantity of people correlates with an increased amount of land needed to feed them?
Or you could, you know, grow more food on the same amount of land. Kind of like how America has to feed 300 million people, and then another 6.7 billion with the same amount of land we've had for a two centuries. We did pretty good at producing more food out of less land for exponentially more people. Then we could get into GM foods and vertical farming, but I think you see my point.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Holben
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That's another way to do something, but you certainly need a minimum amount of land to feed people. You could say 'terrorists are doing all the gun violence so you're not right', but the truth is that many groups of people carry out gun crime, and people tend to take more land rather than GM their crops.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Ànraich
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Yes but it isn't because guns are more available that gun crimes are higher. In order to legally procure a gun in the United States, you have to register the weapon's serial number, as well as the grooves on the bullet made by the barrel. You have to wait two weeks before you can get the gun, and before then you have to pass a background check (perfectly) and a sanity test. Then, when you finally get your gun, you can never carry it around unless you live in a state with conceal and carry laws (like Kansas). And in that case you have to take a class and pass it (again, perfectly). After that you can register to get a conceal and carry license, but even then there are some businesses that don't allow concealed weapons (like everywhere public). And on top of all that, you have to be 21 to legally own a handgun. Which is stupid, because in Kansas you can buy a shotgun at age 14. But they're not going to be shooting anyone with it, accidentally or otherwise, because they'll never get it. Not with all that shit to go through.

Illegally procuring handguns is a moot point, because that is relatively easy anywhere. It's one of the most lucrative trades in the smuggling world, because people all over the world want guns for all sorts of reasons.

EDIT: Also, guns have to be locked in a secure container in most states otherwise you can get a huge fine, possibly jail time if it is endangering a child.
Edited by Ànraich, Jun 13 2011, 02:54 AM.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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seascorpion
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Why Can't I Hold All These Mongols?

i think its time we got back on topic...
But basicly London, San Francisco and Toronto are my options. If i was going for convenience (such as if i wanted to move within the next 3 years) I would go San Francisco, and then Toronto. London would be the most expensive to get to, as well as buying accomadation and so on. However London has people I know, such as dial, a few family friends and a second cousin. so it would be easier to settle in, whereas i know no one in San Francisco, and I know one person who is going to Toronto ( but im not sure if it counts if you know someone whose a recently arrived immigrant).
so what advice have you guys got?
London? San Fran? Toronto? Some place in Kentucky? (sorry Fakey/Campy/Brutal/64, but im not going to move to kentucky, it just doesn't seem like its gay enough)
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dialforthedevil
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As I said Kent is better than London its cheaper :) Also you would only be a 45 minute train journey from London or you could easily get a train to the largest gay community in Europe. Brighton ;) Kent is warm as well, you will feel much more at home :)
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Cephylus
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I wish to emigrate to North America someday, probably to Canada or U.S.A, Europe would also be nice.
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lamna
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You must be prepared to endure diminished Internet access, the North American continent has far inferior infrastructure to that of Republic of Korea in that regard.

Recommend emigration to United States of America subservient nations State of Washington and State of California if continued contact with origin culture is desired. Los Angles and the eastern shore of Puget Sound have high concentrations of Koreans.
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Seriously, I don't know where the hell the "legality of firearms causes crime" idea comes from. I'm not even going to bother responding to any of the points put forth here in that regard.

Firstly, SA is the highest on this list.

I'm from SA, and I know SA, and I'd probably be more qualified to explain the situation in SA than anyone else on this forum.

There is a lot of poverty in SA.

There is a lot of unemployment in SA.

There is huge class related disparity in SA.

Society in SA is heavily shaped by over four decades of ethnic opression.

Class and ethnicity are very linked in modern society in SA.


I can assure you, that at the very least, probably 95% of the guns used by criminals in SA are obtained illegally, and actual figure is likely far higher (very close to 100%).

If guns were made illegal in SA, it would do absolutely diddly-squat to affect crime rates. The huge societal issues that actually cause crime would still exist.

I cannot, of course, speak of Colombia (the second on the list) first-hand, as I have never even visited Colombia, nor do I actually know that much about Colombia. But I do know, that there is a lot of drug related violence there, that there is a lot of poverty, and there is a lot of economic inequality there as well.

Furthermore there is a clear correlation between important factors and gun crime. All of the top four have relatively high Gini figures, and relatively low HDI figures.

Here is a graph correlating gun murders and several other factors.

Posted Image

Red is gun murders per 100 000 people in a year.

Yellow is Gini index figure.

Blue is Human Development Index (HDI) (times 100 so it wouldn't sit as a little line at the bottom of the graph; the HDI system goes between 0 and 1, AFAIK).

Green is GDP per capita (nominal) in thousands of dollars.

There is correlation between National Crappiness and gun murder rates, but the line is a bit... wavy. But there is a clear increase of HDI and GDP per capita, and a clear decrease in Gini.

Let's take the HDI, GDP per capita and Gini index, add them all together, and average them. This should give some idea of the relationship between the countries (it should be noted however that while a higher HDI and GDP per capita mean a better country, a higher Gini means things are supposedly worse- which could make this system flawed).

Posted Image

Red is gun murder rates.

Pink is T.Neo's Zombie Gun-Crime Predictive Index.

As you can see, there is a general curve upward in the TZGCPI as there is a curve down in gun murder rates. There are exceptions, but it does follow a general curve.

In a more proper analysis, one option would be to compile a list of several things- GDP per capita, Gini, literacy rates, and employment rates, and combine them into a single "Gun-Crime Predictive Index", and see if it correlates with gun murder rates.

I do not understand how someone can argue that legal gun ownership correlates to gun crime rates. Gun ownership is legal in both South Africa and the USA, and perhaps is a bit more lenient in the USA, and indeed perhaps a larger percentage of the population in the USA owns guns, yet the gun crime rate is some ten times higher in SA than it is in the US.

SA has serious, serious societal problems. The USA has largely less serious societal problems. What the hell causes gun-crime rates to be so high in SA and the US? Unless we suggest that Space Wizards and Magic Monopoles are at play, it is clear that societal problems are the cause of gun crime.

You know why this pisses me off? It pisses me off because people have uneducated views about guns, yes... but what pisses me off, what really pisses me off, is that there are actual, real, tangible causes for these crime rates, that have nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with real problems that cause a real detriment to society and which really can be fixed.
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Attachments: GunCrimeAndCountryDynamics.jpg (43.96 KB)
Attachments: GunCrimeAndCountryDynamics2.jpg (43.39 KB)
Edited by T.Neo, Jun 14 2011, 02:39 PM.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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lamna
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Yeah but dealing with those problems is hard. Not only that, it never ends you have to keep making sure each generation is looked after right and keep the economy running smoothly. Banning guns is so much easier, one law and poof problem solved.

I should note, as you've read me wrong before, multiple times, that's not my opinion. I'm just stating the reason why I think people focus on gun laws, what I think is a somewhat humorous way.
People don't like problems that can't be solved but need constant management. That's why animal charities that focus on helping individuals get much more money than general conservation ones. You can save Raja the tiger from Generic Unpleasant Indian Zoo, but you can't save the Bengal tiger, just help keep it going for the next generation.

Oh and Colombia not only has trouble with drugs, they have been fighting a low level civil war since 1964 against FARC and other commies. With those dicks running round causing mayhem it's not surprise that you get right-wing paramilitaries popping up too. I mean it's no Somalia but things are about as nasty as they can get without a country starting to crumble. It's getting better slowly, though Chávez isn't helping.
Edited by lamna, Jun 14 2011, 04:00 PM.
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Exactly, lamna. Except banning guns won't do anything, because criminals in such situations don't get their guns legally anyway.

I forgot about FARC, you're right.

I wonder when South America will grow up. It seems to be better off, situation wise, than Africa...
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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