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| Terra Mollusca; Because Terra ____ names are fun. | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 8 2011, 01:10 AM (1,579 Views) | |
| Cephalian | Apr 8 2011, 01:10 AM Post #1 |
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Adolescent
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So finally decided to type this up: an alternative to Earth's evolutions, where Mollusks have made all of chordata an evolutionary footnote as opposed to the dominant life forms. This takes place about 200 million years after Mollusks first progressed from the ocean to the land. Why they beat out chordates is something I will explain in a later post - an accidental refresh deleted that information and I don't feel like fully retyping much of it. It's worth noting that much of Mollusk anatomy is still present, especially the structure of the central nervous system, which forms a ring around the throat as opposed to it's dorsal location in most chordates, and radula as opposed to the tongue we are more familiar with. Further similarities will be elaborated upon in a later post, including how they developed skeletal systems and how they are able to breathe in air. If you haven't read up on it, there's some major barriers to mollusks being the dominant life form. The primary one is the lack of a skeletal system - the primary means of movement for mollusks is a single, muscular "foot". I've read several discussions as to why this foot is so poor for terrestrial movement, because it either requires a large amount of water lost to create a slime to "slide" on - great in swampy or costal areas, but still incredibly slowly and wasteful in most environments – or tentacles, which are absolutely horrific for terrestrial movement. This would require the development of some sort of skeletal system - as cool as tentacles look, they're horrific for terrestrial movement. The argument has been made that evolution doesn't make things, merely works with what's there. The result of this is 3 Superclasses of Mollusks – those whose shell developed into their current skeleton, those who calcified bones, and those that only have a weak cartilage skeleton to allow shape to be maintained but have figured out how to use their “foot” or tentacles for terrestrial movement. I'll elaborate on these superclasses later, but cannot work up the energy to retype that right now. Instead I'm going to take a moment to look at one of the creatures of Terra Mollusca – an ambush predator that fills the same niche alligators fill on modern earth, called the Swampgrasp. Again, lack of energy keeps from further details right now, but I want to get the ball rolling on this. Swampgrasp The Swampgrasp has a long, sinuous body with out much distinction between torso and “tail” (actually a branch of the foot they once had.) The rear 3 pairs of “fins” are supported by an overall skeletal structure and allow for propulsion in water and, like the forelimbs of a sea-lion, crude movement on land. The forward 2 pairs of limbs are stronger, segmented grasping two toed claws, used less for hunting and more for aquatic territorial disputes. Their eyes are located on long stalks, allowing either binocular vision above or below the water, or monocular vision in both locations simultaneously. They change their coloration to best fit into their environment, looking more like logs or other aquatic debris in most situations. What makes the Swampgrasp unique is how members of their genus hunt. The front of their head is a large, blunt beak that conceals their true weapons – a radula that branches into three semi-prehensile psuedo-radula. Upon finding prey, the swampgrasp will swim within range before using powerful muscular action to launch all three psuedo-radula at their target and attempt to grab onto it – something the serrated edges of the radula makes possible more than their inherent strength. Once caught, the swampgraps will attempt to drag its prey wholly into its large beak or, if the prey proves to be too strong, moving onto land to consume the creature there. Once inside the beak, the radula begin undulating to “shred” the creature into something more easily digestible. They are strong enough to even “saw” through the skeletons of most creatures, meaning the entire prey is digested. So there you have one of the predators of Terra Mollusca and some of the science behind it, something I fully intend on elaborating on in the coming days. Still, I hope you enjoy. |
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| SabrWolf | Apr 10 2011, 12:39 AM Post #16 |
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Things you can look at! Here are the sketches I did this evening for Cephalian. I took a liberty with one aspect of the Swampgrab's anatomy; it's eyestalks. I figured it would be beneficial for the sake of camouflage to have the ability to retract the eyestalks creating a more believable looking log. However, if you don't think it works Cephalian, I can chalk it up to "fan art" instead of "official art". lol Enjoy. The Swampgrab's skeletal structure with an outline of the form of the creature: http://sabrwolf.deviantart.com/art/Swampgrab-skeletal-structure-204297249?q=in%3Ascraps%20sort%3Atime%20gallery%3Asabrwolf&qo=3 The Radula extension of the Swampgrab: http://sabrwolf.deviantart.com/art/Swampgrab-radula-extension-204297435?q=in%3Ascraps%20sort%3Atime%20gallery%3Asabrwolf&qo=2 The Eyestalk extension of the Swampgrab: http://sabrwolf.deviantart.com/art/Swampgrab-eyestalk-extension-204297523?q=in%3Ascraps%20sort%3Atime%20gallery%3Asabrwolf&qo=1 A Swampgrab attacking it's favorite prey item the Floatapus: http://sabrwolf.deviantart.com/art/Swampgrab-attacks-a-Flaotapus-204297687?q=in%3Ascraps%20sort%3Atime%20gallery%3Asabrwolf&qo=0 |
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| Cephalian | Apr 10 2011, 11:29 AM Post #17 |
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Adolescent
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Great job with the art, Sabr - especially love the attack scene and, of course, the side view of the swampgrasp. Thank you a ton for the artwork.
Like Sabr pointed out, Chordates did evolve, just didn't make it out of water. They still serve a major role in the oceans - but much like fish left land, evolved into new forms, then returned to the water, there are mollusks now that follow the same path - and with the exception of the sharks and squids of reality, the most successful large marine animals are the ones that followed this route, and it's likely going to be similar for mollusca. |
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Check out my settings, either Urban Jungles or Terra Cephalapodia! Also, I apologize in advance to sometimes responding to quoted posts separately, my iPad makes it nearly impossible to multi-quote multiple posts. | |
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| Canis Lupis | Apr 10 2011, 11:43 AM Post #18 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Just my personal taste Cephalian, I think you should just pick one mollusk to make it out of the water and onto land rather than having multiple species doing it. For example, it seems unlikely to me that both gastropods and cephalopods would make it onto land and dominate. My suggestion is just to pick one of those groups and evolve land creatures from them. If this were my project, I'd personally pick the gastropods. But I'm not telling you which one to pick. I'm just saying that, if you want to make this project more plausible, it would be best to pick either gastropods or cephalopods rather than both. |
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| Cephalian | Apr 10 2011, 12:05 PM Post #19 |
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Adolescent
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I started up writing the description of various creatures and was beginning to wonder the same thing, Lupis. Hearing someone else voice my concerns confirms them. I'm torn on which one to use. I can imagine a ton of creatures evolving from gastropods - more ideas forming from that than cephalopods - but I can see much more unique and interesting creatures evolving from cephalopods. I'm going to give this some serious thought while I work on various things today. I'm going to post my full mobility/support idea to see what you, especially think of it, but it's going to include both gastropods and cephalopods support structure and mobility - and from there I'll decide which one I want to actually use for Terra Mollusca. (Then again, I could just make two separate versions of this - Terra Gastrapoda and Terra Celphalopodia) Either way, I do agree that choosing one or the other is more likely...unless...okay, I need thoughts on this one big time. Between the Devonian and Carboniferous era, their was not yet a super continent formed, (at least according to the artwork on wikipedia). Is it likely and workable that gastropods came ashore and evolved enough on one of the continents, and cephalopods on another, and had workable land-based forms when the continents merged, allowing the two groups that evolved separately to co-exist? And would that make for an interesting setting? Edited by Cephalian, Apr 10 2011, 12:06 PM.
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Check out my settings, either Urban Jungles or Terra Cephalapodia! Also, I apologize in advance to sometimes responding to quoted posts separately, my iPad makes it nearly impossible to multi-quote multiple posts. | |
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| Cephalian | Apr 10 2011, 12:24 PM Post #20 |
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Adolescent
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SUPPORT, FOR REAL: NOTE: Canis Lupis pointed out that having both cephalopods and gastropods as the basis for the dominant life forms might somewhat be overreaching plausibility. I'm debating which I'm going to use, but for now assume I'll chose one or the other and that this post is intended largely for academic discussion of how support/movement evolved. I'm also not addressing flight in this post, that comes later – you have to, in evolution as in most other things, learn to walk before you can fly. Okay, I'm going to really quickly quote myself on the general and post a new Support Structure/Mobility post that covers the overall way this evolved, not the way it happened in just the swampgrasp/floatapus.
The effect this has is that mollusks, unlike modern chordates, can evolve new limbs over time, though it's rare to see one that walks with more than six limbs dedicated to locomotion - when you have at locomotive limbs, it can get kind of hard to co-ordinate that many. The Swampgrasp was the way unshelled gastropods figured out the skeleton, and though placement will vary, the fact that they have four limbs with a skeletal support structure will be the common theme. (Some may evolve, from that initial foot which forms the basis for so much of this, a second part of tentacle "arms" for grasping/manipulating, while others, like the swampgrasp, have hyper-evolved radula that can be used for similar purposes, while still others may evolve bipedalism and use the skeletal forelimbs for grasping) Regardless of their other limbs, the plated back structure for these creatures forms the first class of terrestrial mollusk, the [Latin for plate-backs] Shelled Gastropods had a somewhat easier time with support from an evolutionary standpoint - they already grow a shell, and getting it to the point where that shall was less for protection and more for support - including the support of limbs - was much "easier" evolutionary. This meant, for one class of creature, The downside is, unlikely the first class' plats, this gave them a fused dorsal support structure. On the upside, they have a fused dorsal support structure, much more stable than the [Latin for plate-backs]. Their evolutionary path was, as typical for mollusks, shaped by how that foot got to locomotion. Like the [Latin for plate-backs], their "foot" split into multiple segments that eventually gained a skeletal system through muscular ossification connecting to the primary support structure, the shell (It varies for various creatures if this shell is external or internal, but it is present - though at times, especially when internal, you could hardly call it a shell from shape alone. Unlike the [Latin for plate-backs], they also developed a much more advanced internal skeletal system that, while less flexible, can allow for much larger forms - aided by the fact that they stand on six limbs. These limbs are segmented at 3 joints discounting where they connect internally to the overall skeletal system, giving them much less flexibility but stability similar to that of modern chordates. They fill some of the largest roles in Terra Molluska - but most members of this class, the [Latin for Fused-Back] are not as quick as the [Latin for plate-backs], nor did most get any sort of major modifications to the radula. Other shelled gastropods “decided” solve the problem of mobility and support by not having any once they got past the larval stage, essentially “rooting” themselves in by their shells, the long foot growing out and splitting apart to create what appear to be tentacled plants. Cephalopods had a similar problem to unshelled gastropods - they lacked any sort of support system that wasn't muscular, and that's not very good for moving around on land. Developing a skeletal structure was needed, but was done in three different ways. One group of Cephalopods went the route of the floatapus, which was a lightweight, hollow cartilage skeleton and “ballons” full of interally manufactured helium. I described how this works earlier:
I'll be honest, these creatures will likely go extinct as soon as the next major event occurs, they're far too fragile to survive unless I can come up with something. The second option is again using a cartilage “skeleton,” this one much stronger than the one found in the former class. The skeleton runs down the hind limbs though leaves the front two free for manipulation and “bands” around the rest of the body, connected by two side strands on the right and left of the creature. It offers just enough support to lift the body off the ground so it doesn't drag, but not enough for true walking. Instead, they wind. By moving their second and third set of (cartilage supported) tentacles in a motion similar to that employed by the sidewinder snake, they move across the ground at rapid speeds with the rear two limbs (where the cartilage is thickest held straight back for balance like a tail. They can never achieve any great heights this way and must slowly use these limbs to slither themselves through any gaps that are too narrow to accommodate their out-splayed limbs, but this “costs” much less than skeletons to form, and they likely dominated the land before the final group evolved. On the final group I'm stuck - “Primitive cephalopod gets skeletal structure and then evolution has fun” is about as far as I've gotten on this one. At this point, I want to hear everyone's thoughts on what I have so far as I try and figure out how to make the final group more interesting. As a final reminder, as of now I've no intention of using both cephalopods and gastropods as the basis like I was originally planning, so need to pick, and would like everyone's thoughts on that. No new creature today, want to decide what class I'm focusing on as basis before I do more creature design for Terra Mollusca. |
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Check out my settings, either Urban Jungles or Terra Cephalapodia! Also, I apologize in advance to sometimes responding to quoted posts separately, my iPad makes it nearly impossible to multi-quote multiple posts. | |
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| SabrWolf | Apr 10 2011, 12:32 PM Post #21 |
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Short Answer: Totally possible. Long Answer: In closed ecosystems (like in islands) creatures tend to evolve along different lines than they do elsewhere because they are secluded from outside influences. The idea here that the Mollusks are evolving along similar lines (terrestrial movement) but the creatures are different Classes in the same Phylum. I think that it's plausible that, given the divided nature of the landmasses, this could happen. With a caveat: there would need to be a reason for how Gastropods moved onto land on the one island and how Cephalopods did the same on the other island. Upon realizing the answer to the caveat, I think that the different Mollusks will be able to make their way without worrying about Canis' (well founded) suggestion. Maybe I'm wrong, but I this is simply what I think. |
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| Cephalian | Apr 10 2011, 01:22 PM Post #22 |
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Adolescent
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I'm curious as to your answer. My answer is easy - prey migration. Plants and arthropods were on both landmasses (hell, likely all landmasses) by this point - herbivorous and athrovorous (what would become insectivores) Gastropods/Cephalopods would move onto each landmass for decreased competition for food, followed by ones that would feed on them. |
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Check out my settings, either Urban Jungles or Terra Cephalapodia! Also, I apologize in advance to sometimes responding to quoted posts separately, my iPad makes it nearly impossible to multi-quote multiple posts. | |
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| SabrWolf | Apr 10 2011, 01:41 PM Post #23 |
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Your answer is I could make the same argument for Gastropods, but they DID make it onto land on our Earth making my argument of "No they wouldn't" fall slightly flat. lol Note: I love Cephalopods. The only reason I'm so aggressively taking a stance against their becoming land dwelling is because it is obviously so difficult and expensive for them to do so. A satisfactory answer to the question would probably get me onto the other side of the fence however (easily accomplished since I have such a fondness for them). Edit: I also just realized that the question I posed was not actually answered in your response. lol. The question wasn't "Why?" but "How?" So, ignoring my stricken question as I was momentarily distracted by the verbage of your response, I will ask the correct question again: How was it that the Cephalopods made it onto land without it being too evolutionarily costly for them to do so? Really looking forward to your answer on that one as I'm sure it will be interesting if nothing else. Edited by SabrWolf, Apr 10 2011, 01:48 PM.
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| Cephalian | Apr 10 2011, 01:47 PM Post #24 |
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Adolescent
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Hmm...okay, you raise a very good point there. Incredibly so. Worst of all, the only solution I can think of involves chordates making the move to land, which is something that I don't want to do with Terra Mollusca. At this point, no good solution presents itself without chordata become terrestrial, which defeats the entire purpose of this. Unless and until I or someone comes up with a good solution, gastropoda is the only group of mollusks that makes the sea to land move. EDIT: Now I just need to decide what to do with the floatapus - radically alter its appearance, minorly alter and handwave rest as convergent evolution, or remove entirely. I admit I'm leaning towards the latter, because I'm not 100% confident or comfortable on the biology behind how it floats - does anyone have any thoughts on it's floating mechanism, because I'm way out of my depth when it comes to biology that advanced - especially since it requires a biological tool we've never seen before on Earth, which I'm always hesitant to use. EDIT PART DEUX: REVENGE OF THE EDIT: Okay, now I understand what you were actually asking. Like I said in text, I think that answering the why will help with answering the how...though now I realize that's not entirely true, because they'd need to develop some features underwater to begin moving to land. A fish without flippers in the right area without the right build never could have made it, and a similar problem exists for cephalopods. However, I think I'm coming up with an idea around that...but I'm going to need to ponder the details a bit more, and kind of want to work on Urban Jungle for a bit, so probably will only reply, not update, here until tomorrrow. Oh, and Canis Lupis: At this point I'd love to hear your thoughts on mollusk mobility to see where we converged and where we differed, because I admit I'm starting to get frustrated with my own ideas, so hearing someone else either came up with something similar would be great, and if you came up with something different it will hopefully inspire something new for me as well. Edited by Cephalian, Apr 10 2011, 03:43 PM.
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| Cephylus | Apr 11 2011, 10:03 AM Post #25 |
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Torando of Terror
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I admit I'm not an expert on this area, concering gastropods, but in my opinion having gastropods going terrestrial is more plausible than having terrestrial cephalopods. I mean, the already accomplished it once. Cephalopods lack any potential method of terrestrial propulsion, their tentacles and fins, as well as jet propulsion, is suited for moving underwater, while gastropods, even marine forms, have a propulsion method; the foot. Cephalopods swim. Gastropods crawl, an effective way of propulsion in both marine and terrestrial environments. And they crawled onto land. The gastropods, which made it onto land even after the colonization of chordates and arthropods, are going to beat out the cephalopods, if the cephalopods even MAKE it onto land, that is. And I'm honestly not sure about the floating mechanism thing. A highly expanded some kind of an 'air bladder' organ and hypergracile, light build much like jellyfish? Then they would not be able to land at all. But obviously they would be extremely easy prey, without much defense, meaning they will be exclusively preyed upon by griffinflies. Maybe they should have poison? Or perhaps besides the floating mollusks, there should be a seperate lineage of more predatory aerial mollusks? With skin flaps as wing, maybe? And I'm guessing that the Swampgrasp is among the more earlier land mollusks, akin to temnospondyls and such? |
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| Jasonguppy | Apr 11 2011, 01:04 PM Post #26 |
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Will anyone consider bivalves? Not maybe as on land, but somewhere? You literally can't destroy them, and they are ancient. Perhaps have scallops that clap through the oceans like fish swim? |
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I do art sometimes. "if you want green eat a salad" Projects: Amammalia: A strange place where mammals didn't make it and the land is, once again, dominated by archosaurs. Oceanus: An endless sea dotted with islands, reefs, and black holes. Literally endless, literal black holes. ❤️❤️~I'm not a boy~❤️❤️ | |
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| Cephalian | Apr 11 2011, 02:09 PM Post #27 |
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Adolescent
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Yeah, as cool as the idea of terrestrial cephalopods are, you're right: gastopods would have wiped out any that made it to land, even with my two continents that merge theory. There might be some tiny terrestrial cephalopods that filled the role that gastropods do now or related one, but odds are they're just going to see an increase in aquatic diversity. At this point, I've been convinced (by you all and by some additional research on my own) and decided that terrestrial cephalopods are like terrestrial sharks - it would be awesome, and if you worked really hard you could figure out a way to do it, but they are too well evolved for their current environment to bother making the move to land and the evolutionary difficulty in doing so is one that's going to keep them where they are. That being said, there's a number of traits that - if they aren't already in gastropods - are going to arise in them through a case of convergent evolution - color changing, the ability to expel water/air at high speeds, and multiple limbs being the primary ones. The float mechanism was really primarily as a way to allow tentacles to be used for walking - reduce weight by enough, and you solve the locomotion/support/blood flow problem. However, their vulnerability as prey is a huge one. I'm going to return to the floaters at a later point, but leave the back-burnered for now - once I get more on the rest of the ecosystem, I can see if their is a niche for them. One thing I think I should make clear - I never intended for the ballons to be used for true flight, only to reduce weight to allow octopuses to walk on land, since an animal that uses floating as a way to fly outside of anywhere but something like Titan or a gas giant is too much for me to find plausible. And there will be predatory aerial mollusks that evolved skin flaps that became wings - I have so many ideas for ways to handle that it's kind of ludicrous, but believe i have to establish how mollusks work on land before I get them into the air - Much as I love flish, the idea of a direct aquatic-to-full-flight evolution strains credibility a bit much for me. And yes, the swampgasp is in many ways to terrestrial gastropods what temnospondyls were to tetrapods, with one major difference - they've hit a niche and fill it so well that they're going to undergo evolution the same way alligators and crocodiles do, meaning only minor changes throughout the course of evolution (size, relative length/number/strength of radula, and hide thickness being primary changes) However, a branch of swampgrasp is going to fill a similar but different niche very soon - once I get some new stuff posted on urban jungle, I'll be introducing a different kind of ambush predator that shares an evolutionary lineage with the swampgrasp - but hunts in an arboreal environment.
I like bivalves, but the problem is the same with cephalopods - they're so well evolved from their current niche, why would they try to compete with cephalopods and fish and others in water, or gastropods and insects on land? Either way would cost more evolutionarily that it would be worth. That being said, with so many new animals running around, bivalves are going to evolve some new forms to deal with new predators and prey. |
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Check out my settings, either Urban Jungles or Terra Cephalapodia! Also, I apologize in advance to sometimes responding to quoted posts separately, my iPad makes it nearly impossible to multi-quote multiple posts. | |
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| Cephylus | Apr 12 2011, 06:47 AM Post #28 |
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Torando of Terror
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The biggest problem I see is that there aren't enough potential prey items for the floating creatures. If there was something like air plankton it would be much easier, but the problem is that there isn't any. And if they float they aren't going to be able to come down to land, which means they are going to starve. Some sort of attraction to lure in flying arthropods and such is needed. Also, about the terrestriality of cephalopods, I can see them going partially terrestrial, amphibious, but mostly aquatic in lifestyle- like pinnipeds, mudskippers and primitive amphibians. And I'm looking forward to the arboreal Swampgrasp relative.
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| Cephalian | Apr 13 2011, 12:22 AM Post #29 |
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Adolescent
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Hmm...perhaps an angler fish like light to draw them in? or maybe a scent would work...also, there is the fact that they can go to ground without having to deflate - the floating doesn't keep them up, it just reduces weight. Think of a balloon with helium, but tied to a pen. It's not going to float away, but if you put that pen on a scale it would weigh less than it would normally despite the mass not changing. Plus, the tentacles could be used to grab prey animals and pull them into mouth--maybe make thin and sticky to catch small arthropods? I like the idea of cephalopods living on in an amphibious manner - nothing large enough to make a huge impact on the ecosystem, but still part of it in a minor way. Glad you're looking forward to it! Should have that up sometime soon, need a breather from Urban Jungle, so back to Terra Molluska. |
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| Cephalian | Apr 18 2011, 01:38 AM Post #30 |
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Adolescent
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Just to let everyone know, I'm going to be giving this project a bit of work behind the scenes and then starting a new thread, Terra Gastrapodia, to better reflect what I've come up with and make the whole thing less muddled. My terrestrial Cephalopods, while I have ideas for them, will wait for a different project. But don't worry - Swampgrasp is still in, as is the upcoming arboreal relative of it. |
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Looking forward to the update. So if mollusks replace all chordates, I'm guessing that there are sea-going mollusks as well?


1:44 PM Jul 11