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Would you see this movie?
Topic Started: Feb 22 2011, 02:29 AM (5,468 Views)
T.Neo
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I would love to. Actual writing beats criticism any day of the week.


I've seen a lot of criticisms written better than a lot of stories...

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Dude, they're movies. Use your suspension of disbelief.


Yeah... problem is, suspension of disbelief is like a cable. It can only take so much of a load...

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I got the comaprisons from day one and you haven't even seen the film.


I don't need to waste 114 minutes of my life to know how crappy I Am Number Four is, and I certainly don't need to waste 114 minutes of my life just to compare it to your core concept.

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They should only get annoyed if the aliens speaking English on their home planet are ACTUALLY speaking English and not simply their langauge translated for the sake of convenience.


What is the difference? :rolleyes:

As far as literary devices go, that's got to be one of the sillier ones in my book.

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They wouldn't be exactly identical. Just primate-like.


Considering that pretty much every great ape, and most of the minor apes, qualify as "humanesque", that doesn't change things much...

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What if you don't have the budget or would rather spend money on f/x for a great scene rather than make-up for creatures that wouldn't even make the bulk of the screen time? Effects are getting cheaper but we're not there yet.


I would hire Neill Blomkamp and he'd do it for cheap(er).

:P

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No one watching nature docs expects to empathize with the struggles of a lion finding food to eat or birds migrating south for the winter unlike sentient beings who have similar problems to us.


Really? What sort of crappy nature documentaries have you been watching?

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The only things worthwhile is the cast and script. The rest is extra. Some of the worst movies I've ever seen are terribly expensive (ex. Titanic, the "Pirates of the Caribbean" trilogy) and some of the best movies I've ever seen are were very cheaply produced (ex. The Squid & the Whale, Interview). I hate lousy production values too but the acting and writing comes first and the rest second. And don't forget that the aliens' appearance has aboslutely nothing to do with the story.


I really don't know what the hell you're on about there. Titanic recieved a lot of praise, and Pirates of the Caribbean... well, that was Pirates of the Caribbean.

Just because the aliens apperance does not have (much) to do with the story, does not mean it won't matter to people. Again, people like to be visually stimulated...

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It's not lazy when 'a good struggle with the language' has nothing to do with the story and it's just a distraction and slows the movie down.


Who says it has to be a distraction from the story? It could be part of the damn story. <_<

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If I was bad at something, I'd admit to it. If I'm good at something, well I won't brag, but I'll admit to that.


Really? Sure. :rolleyes:

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That movie was accalimed because it was GOOD not because it was a "Star Trek" adaptation.


Because it was a good Star Trek adaptation.

I'm not saying it wasn't good.

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They're not idiots either since the fiction I've always seen or read where translator chips were employed, their devices weren't dictionaries but truly translated speech for them!


Oh wow, what a visionary bullshit invention. I can't believe it! A device that magically translates speech, and can translate to and from languages that have been yet unknown to science!

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That movie had a human protagonist we had to follow though.


As protagonists go, Wikus is pretty nontypical. He's almost like an antagonist for parts of the film, becomes a sort of anti-hero, victim, person-thing... the film also focuses a lot just on Christopher and his child (and their friend).

District 9 probably gives the prawns alone (without any humans involved) more screen time than your aliens would get; just as a comparison.

The budget for I Am Number Four was 50 million. I haven't seen the film but part of me senses that it wasn't as graphics intensive as District 9. With a 50 million budget you could have just a few minutes of aliens and still have a lot left over for other effects.

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Incredible how that movie only cost $30 mil to produce and its f/x were mind blowing while "Avatar" still won the Best F/X Oscar for its horrid graphics even though it shouldn't even have bee nominated.


Stop talking nonsense. The graphics in Avatar were fine, they tried to instill more of a 'fantasy' than 'reality' feeling, perhaps, and were a bit over-the-top at times, but they really were not 'horrid'.

Where District 9 really deserves praise for its effects is in their directorial use. Blomkamp manages to fit the extraordinary into the film as it is mundane- and invokes the feeling that when you arrive in Johannesburg, you really could see a mothership over the city skyline.

And interestingly, the aliens were originally intended to be portrayed by people in suits, so...

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Without a human protagonist, it likely wouldn't have been greenlighted.


Actually, the movie was pretty much greenlighted by Peter Jackson giving Blomkamp a budget of 30 million and telling him 'make whatever movie you want'.

That is how awesome Blomkamp is. :rolleyes:

It is entirely possible to make a film with no human protagonist, or at least make a film where a human is not the protagonist. If this were impossible, a whole lot of nature documentaries would not exist.

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Also, the aliens' appearance actually had a lot to do with the theme of that story unlike mine. We cared for the Prawns despite them looking like cockroaches which is what the filmmakers were going for. Break the mold and show the audience the ugliness of prejudice and fearing the unfamiliar. My story is just about coming of age.


So? What's wrong with a chance to do something interesting?
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If Avatar didn't have its effects it would have been the largest fiscal loss to a film ever.
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T.Neo
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If Avatar didn't have its effects, it wouldn't have cost so much. :P

Though, if the effects were bad... yeah, ouch. :|

When graphics go wrong, they can go wrong badly. Uncanny valley comes to mind- the fact that Avatar employed what were essentially novel CG humans (ok, so they did have some differences- some more important than others) and was an absolutely huge success means that its graphics were damn good for what they are.

Avatar's plot was nonexistent, and the whole avatar concept would have only weirded people out (unfortunately) if it was not carried out correctly, even the ecological, anti-imperialistic concepts would not have been enough to carry the film without good enough graphics, and certainly not with bad graphics.
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Getting back to South African films - I've just watched one of my all time favourite movies from my childhood - "Dirkie - Lost In The Desert"... by Jamie Uys (who also made Animals Are Beautiful People Too, and The Gods Must Be Crazy)... not in Afrikaans of course - but not dubbed - Uys did two takes of most scenes, in English and Afrikaans - slightly annoying having American voice actors doing the few scenes that were dubbed... but otherwise a great movie - was marketed as a kids movie, but my little brother was traumatised by it - I was 10 when I saw it...
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I can't think of many films set or made in South Africa I've seen. District 9, Zulu and Zulu Dawn are about all I can think of. When Worlds Collide was partly set in SA.

A film about Cuito Cuanavale or Executive Outcomes might be interesting.
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Yorick
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Yeah... problem is, suspension of disbelief is like a cable. It can only take so much of a load...


I'm sure you've bought interstellar travel before in fiction. You can do it again. If not you, then the million others.

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I don't need to waste 114 minutes of my life to know how crappy I Am Number Four is, and I certainly don't need to waste 114 minutes of my life just to compare it to your core concept.


...Yes, you do. There's an expression here in America that goes: you can't judge a book by its cover.

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What is the difference?


They are completely different things.

One has aliens speaking actual English while the other has the aliens speaking in their native tongue but it's being translated for the audience.

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Considering that pretty much every great ape, and most of the minor apes, qualify as "humanesque", that doesn't change things much...


Just pointing out that the word 'identical' was incorrect.

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I really don't know what the hell you're on about there. Titanic recieved a lot of praise, and Pirates of the Caribbean... well, that was Pirates of the Caribbean.

Just because the aliens apperance does not have (much) to do with the story, does not mean it won't matter to people. Again, people like to be visually stimulated...


The point is is that big budget movies will be bad if they don't have a good cast and script while low budget movies will be good as long aas they have a good cast and script.

Yes. People was to be visually stimulated but by good direction, cinematography and f/x. They won't care

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Who says it has to be a distraction from the story? It could be part of the damn story.


Because I want Eli's arc (which is the movie's story) to begin right away and him struggling with the language would be a time consuming distraction.

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Because it was a good Star Trek adaptation.

I'm not saying it wasn't good.


Because it was a good movie period.

But you're saying it didn't earn its acclaim on its own merit.

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Oh wow, what a visionary bullshit invention. I can't believe it! A device that magically translates speech, and can translate to and from languages that have been yet unknown to science!


It's not magic, it's science. The computer in the chip or nanites processes the language being spoken and nearly instantaneously translates and teaches the user.

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Stop talking nonsense. The graphics in Avatar were fine, they tried to instill more of a 'fantasy' than 'reality' feeling, perhaps, and were a bit over-the-top at times, but they really were not 'horrid'.


I disagree. The f/x were supposed to be mind blowing but looked so fake. I would have preferred actual sets built and people in costume and make-up.

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As protagonists go, Wikus is pretty nontypical. He's almost like an antagonist for parts of the film, becomes a sort of anti-hero, victim, person-thing... the film also focuses a lot just on Christopher and his child (and their friend).

District 9 probably gives the prawns alone (without any humans involved) more screen time than your aliens would get; just as a comparison.

The budget for I Am Number Four was 50 million. I haven't seen the film but part of me senses that it wasn't as graphics intensive as District 9. With a 50 million budget you could have just a few minutes of aliens and still have a lot left over for other effects.


Wikus is most definitely a protagonist, nothing more and nothing less. He has an arc he needs to go through but he's not an antihero or antagonist.

Since the main character in my film is an alien, they'll get 99% of the screen time. In their natural form (whatever they may be since it's irrelevant) is what we won't see much.

Stop commenting on films you haven't seen.

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Actually, the movie was pretty much greenlighted by Peter Jackson giving Blomkamp a budget of 30 million and telling him 'make whatever movie you want'.

That is how awesome Blomkamp is. :rolleyes:

It is entirely possible to make a film with no human protagonist, or at least make a film where a human is not the protagonist. If this were impossible, a whole lot of nature documentaries would not exist.


The movie was greenlighted because of Jackson's endorsement.

Blomkamp IS awesome but this movie shows how CONNECTED he is.

Of course it's possible to make films with human protagonists. Just look at animation. Or Aesop's fables before that. And guess what? They all had human personifications.

People have different expectations with nature docs.

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Avatar's plot was nonexistent, and the whole avatar concept would have only weirded people out (unfortunately) if it was not carried out correctly, even the ecological, anti-imperialistic concepts would not have been enough to carry the film without good enough graphics, and certainly not with bad graphics.


Oh, it had a plot. It was just extremely derivative one.

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Getting back to South African films


Anyone here seen the animal adventure "Duma" by Carroll Ballard?

Edited by Yorick, Mar 10 2011, 11:08 PM.
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Ddraig Goch
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There's an expression here in America that goes: you can't judge a book cover.

It's an expression in the rest of the english-speaking world too. ;)

Regarding the aliens, Yorick - if you don't want to design them, fine, but why not let us? If you give us a rough idea of what you're imagining, then I'm sure that the rest of us could come up with something that satisfies both the needs of the film and the science geeks. It's what we do, after all.
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I'd point out that that isn't the saying and that that is the purpose of a cover.
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Yorick
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Regarding the aliens, Yorick - if you don't want to design them, fine, but why not let us? If you give us a rough idea of what you're imagining, then I'm sure that the rest of us could come up with something that satisfies both the needs of the film and the science geeks. It's what we do, after all.


A body with a torso, a head (with a face on it and communicates with sound), two arms, and two legs.

How many finger and toes, hair and fur or scales, warm blooded or cold blooded, skin color, etc. is up to you. I really don't care.

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I'd point out that that isn't the saying and that that is the purpose of a cover.


Sorry. I'll fix that.
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Are you plausible?

I'd see this movie. It sounds like a fun one and apparently my suspension of disbelief has a higher tensile strength than T.Neo's. Yorick, do yourself a favor and don't respond to T.Neo when he gets like this. It doesn't do anybody any good. I don't want to have to slog through all that crap just to read about your ideas.
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T.Neo
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You know, I really am sorry that I percieve films as an art-form, rather than a way to make a quick buck off of gullible teenagers.

When I look at Yorick's core concept, I see it as very derivative, not very exceptional, but not intrinsically bad. I would not spend money to see it in a theatre.

That isn't why I 'get like this'. What annoys me is the fact that Yorick doesn't seem to try and come up with any truely original ideas, is extremely opinionated, and seems to regard any suggestion I make as total and utter rubbish. Make the protagonist a female? Filmmakers owe nothing to anyone to have female heros in films. Set the film outside the US, or at least California? You're paranoid and anti-American. Ditch the implausible interspecies romance? The audience is lobotomised and they don't care about catfish romance. Insert a shred of scientific accuracy into the film for fun? Soft-science fiction is already scientifically accurate, just look at its portrayal of interstellar flight! Try to have original creature design instead of human/rubber-foreheaded aliens? The director and art department do that so instead of dropping ideas into the script I'll just make no effort at all.*

I know how I get, and I know it isn't very nice. But I am not talking nonsense, as tiring as my tirades may be. My problem is, Yorick is worse than I am.

* To be fair though, Yorick did state that he had female protagonists in his other writing projects, and he also moved the setting to Oregon.

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I'm sure you've bought interstellar travel before in fiction. You can do it again. If not you, then the million others.


I've never 'bought' interstellar travel before in fiction, any more than I have 'bought' a game played on flying broomsticks.

Interstellar travel is not the problem. There are many studies on interstellar travel done by reputable people and they're quite interesting.

Spaceflight as a whole in fiction though, is complete and utter nonsense- it is not portrayed in a manner resembling real spaceflight at all.

Of course that is bad. It creates misconceptions. Maybe not as bad as thinking that crime labs always solve cases in a day, or that sharks are dedicated predators of human swimmers, but it can be problematic- I am sure a good deal of people wonder why NASA can't "warp drive" to Mars, or something like that.

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...Yes, you do. There's an expression here in America that goes: you can't judge a book by its cover.


It is not a special US expression. :rolleyes:

No, I do not. I am not judging it by its 'cover', I am judging it by what film critics say about it. Yes, I am missing 95% of the actual film, but this doesn't matter. I don't need to know what the character's facial expression is 46 minutes into the film, to understand the core concept.

:|

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They are completely different things.

One has aliens speaking actual English while the other has the aliens speaking in their native tongue but it's being translated for the audience.


Yes, but they are both the same language being spoken onscreen. How many audience members even realise they're speaking another language?

Granted, a good deal probably do not care, but this is not necessarily a good thing...

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Yes. People was to be visually stimulated but by good direction, cinematography and f/x. They won't care


They also want to be stimulated by interesting creature design- which is actually a subset of all three of those things.

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Because I want Eli's arc (which is the movie's story) to begin right away and him struggling with the language would be a time consuming distraction.


That's fine, what I was trying to say is that there isn't any reason why the arc can't start right away with language being problematic.

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Because it was a good movie period.

But you're saying it didn't earn its acclaim on its own merit.


Not at all; maybe it earned a good deal of its viewership by being a Star Trek film, but if was (hypothetically) a bad movie, critics wouldn't care about the Star Trek connection.

And of course, it also had a very fleshed-out franchise to base itself on... that isn't a bad thing, either.

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It's not magic, it's science. The computer in the chip or nanites processes the language being spoken and nearly instantaneously translates and teaches the user.


If that is science, it is only bad science, I'm afraid.

The sort of "soft science fiction" of the likes of Star Trek or Star wars (and presumably this) has strikingly little science, it's just technologically themed magic. Star Wars is a particularly good example as it is literally a fantasy genre, with "science fiction" elements.

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I disagree. The f/x were supposed to be mind blowing but looked so fake. I would have preferred actual sets built and people in costume and make-up.


To be honest I don't think those were really an option, and were partially the reason the film was only produced recently (the original scriptment comes from the '90s). The sets needed would just be too vast and expensive, and prosthetics really wouldn't have cut it... and there are other there are other things that you can only really use CG for, like for example the wildlife and the battles within the floating mountains.

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Wikus is most definitely a protagonist, nothing more and nothing less. He has an arc he needs to go through but he's not an antihero or antagonist.


As I said, he is pretty nontypical for a protagonist. I guess he's nontypical for an antagonist and an antihero as well.

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Since the main character in my film is an alien, they'll get 99% of the screen time. In their natural form (whatever they may be since it's irrelevant) is what we won't see much.


Of course he'll get 99% of the screen time, but most of that will be him as a human, so it's pretty irrelevant.

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Stop commenting on films you haven't seen.


I really do not see why I need to waste 114 minutes of my life to surmise that while I Am Number Four had visual effects, it did not have photorealistic CG aliens, exo-suits and floating motherships taking up a good portion of the screen time. :|

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The movie was greenlighted because of Jackson's endorsement.


Which is exactly what I said.

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Blomkamp IS awesome but this movie shows how CONNECTED he is.


Exactly, and I don't think he'd be as connected as that if he wasn't as awesome as a filmmaker...

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Of course it's possible to make films with human protagonists. Just look at animation. Or Aesop's fables before that. And guess what? They all had human personifications.

People have different expectations with nature docs.


Exactly my point. What's not to say that a non-human protagonist can't have a human-like personality while not looking anything like a human?

Nature docs with a "protagonist" tend to anthropomorphosise just as much, really. There is the genre of "xeno-fiction" which deals with things from a distinctly non-human perspective, but I don't know much about it.

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Oh, it had a plot. It was just extremely derivative one.


Yeah, and it was also one that I found myself predicting several scenes ahead of time... maybe that's what makes a winning combination for some people, I don't know. :rolleyes:
Edited by T.Neo, Mar 11 2011, 07:26 AM.
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Yorick
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Yorick, do yourself a favor and don't respond to T.Neo when he gets like this. It doesn't do anybody any good. I don't want to have to slog through all that crap just to read about your ideas.


I wouldn't even care if he disliked my idea as long as his criticisms and suggestions made sense but so far they haven't.

Of course that is bad. It creates misconceptions.[/quote]

So...? What's the problem?

People shouldn't be getting their education from movies and even if they did, there's no harm in someone thinking interstellar travel is that likely.

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No, I do not. I am not judging it by its 'cover', I am judging it by what film critics say about it. Yes, I am missing 95% of the actual film, but this doesn't matter. I don't need to know what the character's facial expression is 46 minutes into the film, to understand the core concept.


There are so many contradictions here that I don't know where to begin commenting.

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Yes, but they are both the same language being spoken onscreen. How many audience members even realise they're speaking another language?

Granted, a good deal probably do not care, but this is not necessarily a good thing...


Most people will understand the difference quite well as long as its executed properly since I've never heard someone complain about "Battle for Terra."

How is it a good thing or bad thing? It's not harming anyone!

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Not at all; maybe it earned a good deal of its viewership by being a Star Trek film, but if was (hypothetically) a bad movie, critics wouldn't care about the Star Trek connection.

And of course, it also had a very fleshed-out franchise to base itself on... that isn't a bad thing, either.


Of course critics would slam it if it was a bad film no matter if it was original or not.

Why would any sself-respecting critic care about the source material when analyzing the quality of a film adaptation?

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If that is science, it is only bad science, I'm afraid.


How so? It's advanced technology but certainly isn't magic.

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That's fine, what I was trying to say is that there isn't any reason why the arc can't start right away with language being problematic.


...Because it would be distracting if he was constantly struggle to just speak English! He still has to learn slang, catch phrases and figures of speech but him still learning spelling and grammar and pronounciation would be a waste of time.

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They also want to be stimulated by interesting creature design- which is actually a subset of all three of those things.


Maybe so but it's not important in the making ofa good movie unlike believable f/x, good direction and photography.

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The sets needed would just be too vast and expensive, and prosthetics really wouldn't have cut it... and there are other there are other things that you can only really use CG for, like for example the wildlife and the battles within the floating mountains.


I like CGI just fine. I thought "TRON: Legacy" had the best f/x of 2010. But it was overused and fake looking in "Avatar."

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As I said, he is pretty nontypical for a protagonist.


How is a protagonist with an arc non-typical???

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Of course he'll get 99% of the screen time, but most of that will be him as a human, so it's pretty irrelevant.


Just pointing out that aliens would be prominently featured in the script despite not having a strange, unrecognizable form.

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I really do not see why I need to waste 114 minutes of my life to surmise that while I Am Number Four had visual effects, it did not have photorealistic CG aliens, exo-suits and floating motherships taking up a good portion of the screen time.


You need to see it to comment on the script.

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Which is exactly what I said.

Exactly, and I don't think he'd be as connected as that if he wasn't as awesome as a filmmaker...


Yes. A FRIEND'S endorsement and not a studio head willing to take such a risk without it.

I never denied Blomkamp wasn't a good filmmaker. Just that know one could have seen it without being connected.

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Exactly my point. What's not to say that a non-human protagonist can't have a human-like personality while not looking anything like a human?


Animated films and fables have human needs and wants (as well as physical attributes sometimes) unlike aliens which can be vastly different.

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Nature docs with a "protagonist" tend to anthropomorphosise just as much, really. There is the genre of "xeno-fiction" which deals with things from a distinctly non-human perspective, but I don't know much about it.


Neither do I....which in the end proves my point about their popularity.
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T.Neo
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as long as his criticisms and suggestions made sense but so far they haven't.


Only because you're not willing to listen at all.

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So...? What's the problem?

People shouldn't be getting their education from movies and even if they did, there's no harm in someone thinking interstellar travel is that likely.


It's not about 'interstellar travel'. It has very little to do with interstellar travel. It's about the portrayal of spaceflight in media which is, in most instances, utter rubbish.

Of course people shouldn't be getting their education from movies. But, tell that to the hordes of people who download a space sim and then complain that it's broken because none of the spacecraft fly like the ones in the movies.

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There are so many contradictions here that I don't know where to begin commenting.


I fail to see how my comment could have been so bad that it failed to put across my point entirely...

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Most people will understand the difference quite well as long as its executed properly since I've never heard someone complain about "Battle for Terra."


I've never heard someone talk about Battle for Terra anywhere other than on this forum. I wouldn't pick it as a most populous example...

Nevertheless, I agree with you on the "executed properly" part, but still... it lacks an air of authenticity.

Maybe that applies more to historical stuff than speculative, science fiction stuff like this, but still...

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How is it a good thing or bad thing? It's not harming anyone!


It's bad if it's harming the people who regret that they wasted money buying a ticket. And also bad when people dislike it so much that you lose ticket sales via word-of-mouth.

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Of course critics would slam it if it was a bad film no matter if it was original or not.

Why would any sself-respecting critic care about the source material when analyzing the quality of a film adaptation?


I was just making a point of its worth not intrinsically being related to it being a Star Trek film.

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How so? It's advanced technology but certainly isn't magic.


Another unfortunate misconception generated by countless films is the idea that advanced technology and magic are one and the same.

Regardless of the Clarke's Laws, they are not.

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...Because it would be distracting if he was constantly struggle to just speak English! He still has to learn slang, catch phrases and figures of speech but him still learning spelling and grammar and pronounciation would be a waste of time.


It wouldn't be distracting if it itself was the story.

My point is not that it should be part of the story, but it certainly could be part of the story and work well if executed correctly.

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Maybe so but it's not important in the making ofa good movie unlike believable f/x, good direction and photography.


Except: Good creature design is itself exactly, a subset of believable f/x, good direction and photography.

Of course it's as important as those three things- it's part of them.

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I like CGI just fine. I thought "TRON: Legacy" had the best f/x of 2010. But it was overused and fake looking in "Avatar."


Well, if you want to think that... go ahead. But I certainly wouldn't say it is the popular opinion.

I would even agree with you, but not to such an extent as saying that the effects were terrible and they ruined the film.

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How is a protagonist with an arc non-typical???


So? He just has a non-typical arc.

Can you show me three examples of a character that initially hates whatever cause he/she gets involved in, becomes a hero but still has hate-able elements? I'll then concede that Wikus is a totally typical protagonist...

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Just pointing out that aliens would be prominently featured in the script despite not having a strange, unrecognizable form.


Yes, but if they're just humans with no special effects, from a production point of view they are human.

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You need to see it to comment on the script.


I'm not commenting on the script. Just surmising what the basic outline must have been like based on what I've heard.

If I am so wrong about the effects in the film, say so, don't be blindly argumentative about me being entirely incapable of coming to any conclusion of any kind ever.

I've never been to Jupiter, but I can surmise that it's big, cloudy, and kinda-red-orange-tan-ish.

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Animated films and fables have human needs and wants (as well as physical attributes sometimes) unlike aliens which can be vastly different.


That really depends. An alien can have a lot of psychological differences from a human but they'll have basically the same needs (nourishment, shelter) and their wants will at least be understandable to the audience, most of the time.

Also, there is no reason that psychological convergence can't exist, just like physical convergence can... that is no reason for them to be psychologically 'humanesque', but similar pressures can drive the development of similar emotions.

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Neither do I....which in the end proves my point about their popularity.


Their popularity is not intrinsic to their audience potential. It could be that writers generally don't write such stories, which is of course understandable since all writers are human.

TvTropes has a page for Xenofiction examples here. There are more examples than one might initially think...
Edited by T.Neo, Mar 11 2011, 03:31 PM.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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