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Dragons; where could they fit?
Topic Started: Feb 18 2011, 03:56 AM (662 Views)
macgobhain
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There are several ways I see dragons evolving and the whole fire breathing thing is possible in several ways...

But my question is how can they exist without being the unquestionable apex predator?

Especially if you were to have them evolve from avicephalan reptiles. They can fly, and run, and breathe fire. And if you have them only capable of flight they still breathe fire and would pretty much dominate avian niches... is it plausible to have them live along side other aerial predators or not?

The mockumentary on them that Patrick Stuart narrated suggested that they might need platinum ore in order to breathe fire, would that help them be more rare? Or would they simply give up fire breathing and kill their prey the way everything else does?
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Cephylus
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How do you reckon dragons actually breathe fire? I am skeptical about the whole thing...

The problem with traditional dragons is that they are way, way big for flying. Dragons, as depicted in myths, weigh as much as an African elephant in most series, with relatively small wingspans.

Well anyway, I doubt there would be much competition with avians if they really evolved, considering the fact that birds are generally smaller, and as they did with pterosaurs (they were larger, much efficient at flight than the birds present with them, and most of them were very sturdy on land), they would co-exist with dragons, although seeing that dragons are quadrupedal and therefore have certain advantages (including the fire-breathing if it really evolves) some niches would be taken, especially the large carnivore niches, and on ground they will explore some terrestrial animal niches as well.

But yeah, if the dragons are carnivorous likely they will be apex predators of their ecosystem.
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DorianGray
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I had a MASSIVE argument about this on JPLegacy, but i'll not get into that. While i think that if Dragons DID exist, they would've evolved from Avicephalian reptiles. But as Cephylus has already mentioned they are way too big to fly, but there's also something else about Dragon legends that dosen't add up. They're meant to be Sapient. Seriously, most Dragon legends depict them as intelligent creatures which ally or fight against humanity and are capable of higher reasoning. There are two things wrong with this.

Firstly anyone who knows anything about Diapsid skulls knows what the two holes on each side do. They're meant for the Jaw Muscles to expand outward so it dosen't squash brain inbetween. So if a Diapsid had a bigger skull, it would have a weaker bite. This would be an obvious flaw in it's evolution, since Dragons are meant to be carnivorous, they would need a very strong bite to bring down their prey.

Secondly there's no reason for it, most animals get on fine with just a strong bite as it's specialization. While other factors are at play, having a very strong bite is much more efficient way for a reptile to kill it's prey. Evolving sapient intelligence has it's advantages for weaker meat eaters like us, it allows us to develop tools and weapons to bring down our quarry. But a Dragon can breath fire and fly, what the hell does it need with a Spear when it can do that?

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macgobhain
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cephylus there's plenty of information on the net on how they could've breathed fire, from igniting methane with electric sparks to goo in their stomachs. I'm surprised you wouldn't have looked it up before posting that you're skeptical. And a lot of them are depicted with smaller wings but modern adaptations i.e. Harry Potter, Dragonheart, Rain of Fire, and that Patrick Stuart mockumentary all did pretty well I think.

And yes many myths make them sapient and that's the "myth" part of it. I always liked dragons and I think they're an important addition to any Western fantasy because the crowd also likes them. I liked them as animals though, but I don't see them fitting into the ecosystem without radically changing everything I've already done.

Sorcerers and such in my book will conjure up animals and demons from other worlds or parallel realities... that gives them a good magical connection I think. That way there are virtually none and where they do exist they are very damaging to the ecosystem because they don't belong.
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Scrublord
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The idea of dragons being sapient is a pretty recent one, dating back to Tolkien at most. In most of the older legends (and I'm only talking about European-style dragons here), they were just "dumb monsters."
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Cephylus
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macgobhain
Feb 18 2011, 06:20 AM
cephylus there's plenty of information on the net on how they could've breathed fire, from igniting methane with electric sparks to goo in their stomachs. I'm surprised you wouldn't have looked it up before posting that you're skeptical. And a lot of them are depicted with smaller wings but modern adaptations i.e. Harry Potter, Dragonheart, Rain of Fire, and that Patrick Stuart mockumentary all did pretty well I think.

And yes many myths make them sapient and that's the "myth" part of it. I always liked dragons and I think they're an important addition to any Western fantasy because the crowd also likes them. I liked them as animals though, but I don't see them fitting into the ecosystem without radically changing everything I've already done.

Sorcerers and such in my book will conjure up animals and demons from other worlds or parallel realities... that gives them a good magical connection I think. That way there are virtually none and where they do exist they are very damaging to the ecosystem because they don't belong.
I'm skeptical about the fire-breathing, not impossible. Well, okay, http://www.hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/Fire.htm, reading this I changed my mind on fire-breathing.

And you mention all those movies depicting dragons, well, it's not just about wing proportions. It's their size, bulkiness, their bones, respiration system, their taking-off methods and all those factors that count. First of all, the dragonheart dragon; just type the word in google images and see what it looks like and the creature with such small wings and gigantic, bulky bauplan can't fly. Definately. Reign of Fire is not different. They are just giant; probably bigger than an elephant. And the Patrick Stuart 'Cretaceous Dragon', it's way too bulky. And it's bipedal. You know how storks and similar large birds have problems taking off? They flail around and flap their wings like crazy before they can fly. The reason pterosaurs were able to get that big (as I learned from Johnfaa) they did the 'gallping take-off'. Pterosaurs also had less problem flying, because large birds have all that added weight of those long legs hindering them in flight, as their wing membranes stretch to their hind legs.

But well, the Harry Potter Hungarian Horntail was good, I can see it easily flying, as they are quadrupeds and seem relatively light creatures. The Mountain Dragons from the mockumentary is good as well, especially if they are descended from avicephalans, just if they are a bit slimmer and lighter. And both designs need a larger would be a lot more plausible if they have a larger expanse of wing membranes stretching to their limbs, like pterosaurs.

See Jasonguppy's design for the avicephalan dragon. It's quite nice in my opinion. ;)


And about the dragons-being sapient issue, well, Asian dragons were always sapient, but Western dragons weren't. The sapient issue, as Squibby correctly stated, was probably started by Tolkien, Smaug the Magnificient, and some MMORPGs based off those Tolkein-esque fantasies created the 'modern myth' of sapient dragons. The traditional dragons, which I prefer more, are non-sapient. Not that I don't like sapient dragons, though.

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Zoroaster
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I'd just like to point out something - in some medieval and renaissance art, dragons were sometimes represented as bipeds with wings instead of legs or front arms - i.e. tetrapods...

there's a famous picture of St George slaying the dragon, and the dragon only has wings and a single pair of legs...

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when I was a kid my dad had a large print of it in our lounge room or dining room - I was fascinated by it, but also a bit scared, but it didn't give me nightmares (most of my nightmares when I had when I was a kid were about vicious man-eating chickens - which are still more plausible than dragons) - and I remember one of my first reactions was pity for the mutilated dragon...

I find dragons pretty boring really... and silly... that's just my opinion...
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Ook
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well,many of them were based on crocodiles.I saw picture with St.George from medieval with very croc like wingless dragon
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Holben
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Topics we've had about dragons so far:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/4060446/
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/4032037/
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3978243/
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3991308/
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3749199/
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/2373622/
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

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