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The official cliche list; What should we try and avoid perhaps?
Topic Started: Jan 21 2011, 12:18 PM (6,361 Views)
macgobhain
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how the hell do you know Earth isn't a project Holbenilord? God stop correcting everyone like some little no-it-all.

For all you know our multiverse is inside a marble that gets played with by God or some giant alien like in MIB.

Maybe it's God's little project, maybe there's multiple Gods, maybe you're right and there's no God at all and everything is just random, perpetuated, and meaningless. You don't know and no one knows so try phrasing it more like "I don't think the Earth is a project" or "In my opinion Earth isn't a project" but not "Oh, and Earth isn't a project."

figghiazzu ri sukka minkia ur making me crazy!
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Cephylus
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Earth is a project! :lol:

It's the biggest, most ambitious and the most complex speculative evolution project known to us. It's got it's own sapients, it's own ecosystem and whole life history, and it pays attention to the smallest of life forms.

It's currently located in a site with the same name, Earth, but the site's so vast and hazardous, with many errors, viruses and death traps aht nobody's explored it fully.
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DorianGray
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This is getting existential, probably shouldn't jump in right now but i have information about penis. Overall the size of the human penis is bigger than it was one hundred years ago, the schlong rather recent development in evolution. Which makes Ron Jeremy the height of human development.
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Holben
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macgobhain
Feb 18 2011, 06:29 AM
how the hell do you know Earth isn't a project Holbenilord? God stop correcting everyone like some little no-it-all.

For all you know our multiverse is inside a marble that gets played with by God or some giant alien like in MIB.

Maybe it's God's little project, maybe there's multiple Gods, maybe you're right and there's no God at all and everything is just random, perpetuated, and meaningless. You don't know and no one knows so try phrasing it more like "I don't think the Earth is a project" or "In my opinion Earth isn't a project" but not "Oh, and Earth isn't a project."

figghiazzu ri sukka minkia ur making me crazy!
Earth isn't a project, that's what philosophy tells me- i have as much right to say it as anyone can say anything in a world where people all are like this.

And correcting everyone? Naw. I only correct what i feel must be corrected because 1) it's not true or 2) i strongly disagree with it.
Now, i'm not that much of a know-it-all, but here's one for you- what would be wrong if i was?

Don't just give me ideas from fiction! And multiverses aren't physical objects, so shahhoobida to that.
The very idea of an observable thing outside our universe fhfkjhdsgkiadgjhagdkj annoys me. Not physics.

Random, perpetuated and meaningless? I didn't say that! It's a pattern in randomness, aye, but can't perpetuate itself for ever. And meaning is a human invention. Am i too cold for you? :P
I can say, beyond reasonable doubt, 'earth is not a project', so for the same reason i can say 'the sky is blue', when it may not be, i can say 'Earth is not a project'. Godammit.

If i'm making you crazy, you need to spend more time around me and see how things hold up!
By the way, i'm biased against you if it makes you feel any better.


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It's the biggest, most ambitious and the most complex speculative evolution project known to us. It's got it's own sapients, it's own ecosystem and whole life history, and it pays attention to the smallest of life forms.
It's not speculative, it's observed.
So it's not an SE project.

Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Zoroaster
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I agree with your thinking Holben...

Some of this stuff is starting to smack of L Ron and Erik Van...

If I had my way, Erik Von Danniken would be publicly humiliated then decapitated - but with great ceremony and pomp and blokes in fancy uniforms on white horses etc... mumbo jumbo new age garbage - next thing we'll be hearing about the Mayan calendar ending in 2012 - last year I spent some time learning the Maya numeral system, and their method of calculating years - their calendar was capable of dates FAR in excess of next year!!! Grrrr!!!

And if the Maya were that good at prophecy, don't you think they'd have prepared themselves for the arrival of the Conquistadors?
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T.Neo
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What became of that?
Well, we've protoyped magnetic shields which repel solar wind and big thick armour. But can we afford to send them up?


Oh, I wonder...

Big thick armor isn't very difficult.

The idea was not to build gigantic space colonies from resources launched from Earth, but to construct a base on the Moon, which would mine lunar materials and shoot them off to a Lagrange point/geostationary orbit/Earth-Moon synchronous orbit, where they would be made into colonies.

As I said, the infrastructure needed doesn't nearly exist.

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The Moon has some of the weirdest characteristics than any other object we have observed so far in the (to us) known universe, and lookie here, its our first neighbor . Some crazy speculations lately that it might be an artificial construct, by some extraterrestrial intelligence :P. If it was a bit more "normal" I would have considered it quite ludicruous, but I dunno lol ...


I can start with various reasons why the Moon is not artificial. One is that it is incredibly dense, with a density fitting- guess what- solid rock and a little bit of iron, and it is many times more dense than even a submarine, so as to what interior spaces it would have...

The Moon is probably a good example of a very generic inner system low mass body, actually. Besides maybe the slight iron deficiency, but that's explained by its formation.

The funny thing though, is that all planets/moons/etc have their own strange attributes. No two planets are alike, that's one of the things that makes planetary science and astrophysics so awesome.

Nibiru is plausible? Let me say this in bold caps, just to put the point across: IT IS NOT. Why? Because of innumerable reasons. It's conspiracy nonsense, doesn't fit with science or even common sense at all.

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If one day, somehow, that theory gets proven correct (I'm saying this for the sake of the argument only) we would have a perfect real example of an artificial planet/satelite.


Well... let's just say that if I were to build a gigantic planet/ship/thing, I wouldn't build it like the Moon.

For starters I would make it many times smaller, the gravity of those sorts of things tend to make them collapse in on themselves. On the other hand, if it has a proper density (being made hollow, like real vehicles) it'll have a far lower mass and thus be at less of a risk from collapse.

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I have seen that model in countless of documentaryin wich astrobiologist have speculate about that.They say that something like this is possible,but only in a time of great crissis like when there star is about to die.


Doesn't make sense. A star leaving the main sequence is a bad thing, but not a crisis... you can see it coming for billions of years.

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I don't see how it can be "DNA" - as we know it - if it's from some alien extra-terrestrial organism.

And even if it has the EXACT same chemical formula as DNA, none of the encoding sequences would match any earth sequences...


Exactly! I agree fully, though I think that while extraterrestrial life will probably not have our familiar DNA, they might use a molecule that resembles it at least partially.

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I HATED it in ID4 when Jeff Goldblum used his 16/32 bit Mac to hack into the Alien system (using what? WiFi? did the aliens have open ports listening for unencrypted traffic [appletalk? ethernet? tcp/ip? ipv6?] on the 2.4 Ghz spectrum?) Were their systems binary compatible with the data he was using to infect their computer system?


I couldn't stand that either! Inane nonsense!

To be fair, he was supposedly hooking the computer up to the attacker, which hooked up to the mothership itself... the problem is, that writing a virus built for a mostly unknown alien computer system in a matter of hours or days is impossible, and uploading it via a laptop is just silly.

The handwave that Earth's computer technology was based off of the downed attacker/scout makes no sense, even if you could make sense of the hardware and part of the software, you couldn't write a virus for their OS... just look at how you can't infect a Mac with a PC virus, for example. In addition, that "mode of development" for computer technology is entirely at odds with actual history, but this is slightly excusable since it's a movie... unfortunately, some people really think this is how our computer technology came to exist...

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Concerning Orion's Arm, a lot of it is pure speculation and fantasy disguised as science, I know. But a lot of things are probable, if not possible.


Farfetched science... and even I can detect a lot of errors (for example, one fusion drive is supposed to have something like a 95% efficiency, which is impossible, as a heat engine has a maximum efficiency of around 30%...)

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Transhumanism, even remotely close to what is described there is a huge possibility.


Not. Even. Close.

The transhumanism described there is so inane that I'm sure a good deal of transhumanists would find it inane. It's just an attempt to create a diverse story setting with many different 'clades', without using actual alien sophonts, while including transhumanism. While it's an interesting take on the diverse-setting theme, it doesn't really make sense.

For example, OA presents the concept of "toposophic levels", and that sapience is the first "toposophic level", or S0. Every level is a new "singularity of conciousness".

Which is complete bollocks, not only is there zero evidence for anything like a "toposophic level", but sapience is rather a collection of traits that allow for things like metacognition, not a "conciousness singularity". It's almost as bad as "evolutionary levels".

Really... transhumanism is either unecessary, downright silly, or unethical, depends on which form you choose but they all end up at those basic end conclusions.

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As per the Moon being artificial, there are even people in astronomy who hint this. Its not something i have come up with nor necessarily believe in. I just said it in the context of artificial structures that could serve as space habitats for civilizations.


People in astronomy? Who? Which reputable astronomer or planetary scientist or astrophysicst suggested Luna was an artificial construct?

If I were to build a gigantic space habitat, I would not build one in the shape of the Moon... starting with the fact that generating artificial gravity would be highly impractical.

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High convergence is different form being identical.
And if the clock was run backwards, to quote Stephen Jay Gould, then replayed, things woulkd turn out differently due to the randomness of mutation.


Exactly. On Earth things would be different but still vaguely similar (mutation differs but natural events stay the same/similar).

On other planets, natural history will differ vastly... ergo, so will evolution and the organisms that result.

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Earth isn't a project, that's what philosophy tells me- i have as much right to say it as anyone can say anything in a world where people all are like this.


We're all entitled to our own philosophy, Holben... we shouldn't force our own views on others as UNIVERSAL SCIENTIFIC TRUTH!!!!11111!!!11!!!!!11

And can we please stay on topic... :|

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If I had my way, Erik Von Danniken would be publicly humiliated then decapitated - but with great ceremony and pomp and blokes in fancy uniforms on white horses etc... mumbo jumbo new age garbage - next thing we'll be hearing about the Mayan calendar ending in 2012 - last year I spent some time learning the Maya numeral system, and their method of calculating years - their calendar was capable of dates FAR in excess of next year!!! Grrrr!!!

And if the Maya were that good at prophecy, don't you think they'd have prepared themselves for the arrival of the Conquistadors?


Ok, decapitation is going too far but... public humiliation. I like it. Maybe involving a pyramid, or a gigantic Egyption lightbulb, or something? Maybe a Nibiru... all those implausible, non gravitationally attracting Jupiter masses ought to hurt.

Ok, so the planetary collision thing is worse than decapitation. Who cares. :lol:

The Mayan stuff is nonsense. If I recall correctly, the Mayans themselves didn't care all too much about 2012, just as we don't care all that much about December 31st (ok, we do, but not in an end-of-the-world sense).
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Holben
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T.Neo
Feb 18 2011, 02:25 PM
Exactly! I agree fully, though I think that while extraterrestrial life will probably not have our familiar DNA, they might use a molecule that resembles it at least partially.
It's DNA if it has methyls and deoxyribose around a sturcture joined with amino acids. So it is most likely to be DNA. Anyway, what else? TNA? RNA? However, coding processes may be different, and that gives soem scope.
But the ADAPTATIONS to certain EVENTS will most likely be the same.

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Farfetched science... and even I can detect a lot of errors (for example, one fusion drive is supposed to have something like a 95% efficiency, which is impossible, as a heat engine has a maximum efficiency of around 30%...)
"Even i"... don't put yerself down T. Neo.
I must confess, i've only had a peek, and i didn't think it was good. But this has been affirmed by what i think are trustworthy sources.
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Really... transhumanism is either unecessary, downright silly, or unethical, depends on which form you choose but they all end up at those basic end conclusions.
Yup. And things like limb or organ replacements in medicine are NOT TRANSHUMANISM
But is uploading a dying man's brain, however you'd go about doing that?

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If I were to build a gigantic space habitat, I would not build one in the shape of the Moon... starting with the fact that generating artificial gravity would be highly impractical.
I'd go for a ring if you want it orbiting something, or else whatever has the least SA for meteroids and radiation to affect it.
Tiny sphere.

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We're all entitled to our own philosophy, Holben... we shouldn't force our own views on others as UNIVERSAL SCIENTIFIC TRUTH!!!!11111!!!11!!!!!11
YAAAAAAH
People have never, in practise, kept to that maxim though, have they? :P
I think i'm just trying to help... does that justify it?
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And can we please stay on topic... :|
Judging from SE, no.

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Ok, decapitation is going too far but... public humiliation.

The media wouldn't be interested, so no-one would know. However, if you decpaitated him, they would be interested and you could fit in the reasons he was wrong into your interview with them.

Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Kamidio
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macgobhain
Feb 14 2011, 05:58 AM
The other thing that makes no sense is the big bang. What exploded exactly? If there was nothing then how does everything suddenly explode? Even Einstein said that all life was too perfect to have happened by "accident". Like I said, to believe that all of the sudden everything exploded from nothing requires a lot more faith than the belief in an eternal cycle of God, Gods, and Heaven, that's simply beyond the comprehension of human beings.
Dodgamnit. The Big Bang was a rapid expansion, not an explosion.
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If that is what you believe, Macgobhain, clearly you don't belong on this forum.
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T.Neo
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It's DNA if it has methyls and deoxyribose around a sturcture joined with amino acids. So it is most likely to be DNA. Anyway, what else? TNA? RNA? However, coding processes may be different, and that gives soem scope.
But the ADAPTATIONS to certain EVENTS will most likely be the same.


But, will the base pairs be the same?

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"Even i"... don't put yerself down T. Neo.
I must confess, i've only had a peek, and i didn't think it was good. But this has been affirmed by what i think are trustworthy sources.


Hey... I have to. Otherwise people who are better qualified (read, who actually have qualifications) than I am think I'm a nutter. Which I am, of course. :P

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Yup. And things like limb or organ replacements in medicine are NOT TRANSHUMANISM


Exactly.

I have a piece of UV-hardened resin smushed into one of my teeth, but that doesn't make me transhuman.

Medicine is about fixing problems. Transhumanism is about creating them. :rolleyes:

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But is uploading a dying man's brain, however you'd go about doing that?


Yes, it is. At least, I think it is.

Doesn't make much sense, since the man himself will die and all you'll have is a simulation of his brain/mind, would be better to try and invent better medicine (you know, legitimate stuff) to save his life so that he'll live longer...

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I'd go for a ring if you want it orbiting something, or else whatever has the least SA for meteroids and radiation to affect it.
Tiny sphere.


You mean, a ring centered on a gravitational source?

Won't work, because it won't be orbiting... it'll be unstable and crash into the body at the center.

Cylinders work best, though you can have rings too (the popular Stanford Torus design is a ring, essentially). For the absolutely gigantic settlements that can house quadrillions of people, gigantic rings would be the optimal shape... problem is, they need to be built out of unobtanium or they'll disentegrate..

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YAAAAAAH
People have never, in practise, kept to that maxim though, have they?
I think i'm just trying to help... does that justify it?


I know. Why don't you set an example and start?

Saying you're trying to help doesn't justify things... that's just what everyone breaking the maxim thinks. ;)

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Judging from SE, no.


I know, right? Maybe we should just try to stay on topic about things that at least have some relevance to SE and/or don't violate the rules...

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The media wouldn't be interested, so no-one would know. However, if you decpaitated him, they would be interested and you could fit in the reasons he was wrong into your interview with them.


And then be charged with murder and be arrested. :P
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Holben
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T.Neo
Feb 18 2011, 03:14 PM
But, will the base pairs be the same?
Depends. I don't know if CGATU are the only ones that go with deoxyribose.
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Hey... I have to. Otherwise people who are better qualified (read, who actually have qualifications) than I am think I'm a nutter. Which I am, of course. :P
Qualifications you say. :r
Well, we try.
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I have a piece of UV-hardened resin smushed into one of my teeth, but that doesn't make me transhuman.
I have two.

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Doesn't make much sense, since the man himself will die and all you'll have is a simulation of his brain/mind, would be better to try and invent better medicine (you know, legitimate stuff) to save his life so that he'll live longer...
I guess you're right. For continuity of consciousness, you need to keep that ol' brain going.
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You mean, a ring centered on a gravitational source?

Won't work, because it won't be orbiting... it'll be unstable and crash into the body at the center.
The mechanical stress will be massive if it's moving! But why not have it stationary and if you want gravity, use a damn planet.

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I know. Why don't you set an example and start?
Sounds awfully hard. Breaking conformity...

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And then be charged with murder and be arrested. :P
Hey, you wanted to get the message across. :P
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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SIngemeister
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T.Neo
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I guess you're right. For continuity of consciousness, you need to keep that ol' brain going.


Continuity of consioucsness? I take it that someone is still somehow concious while asleep? Or in a recoverable coma?

Aren't there cases where brain activity stops, only to be restarted once the patient is resucitated?

Nevertheless, the problem is mainly the fact that you're destroying the original structure (debatable on whether the method does this by the means of it's operation, but the guy will be dead/be killed soon afterwards anyway) and running a simulation on a totally different structure (like the argument against teleportation, only the subject is not "rematerialised" but rather re-created in a simulation).

The other is that the subject is now locked in cyberspace, with no body to interact with the world.

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The mechanical stress will be massive if it's moving! But why not have it stationary and if you want gravity, use a damn planet.


The further away you get from a planet the less gravity there is, so you can't win all the time. Also, the mechanical stress will be massive if it's stopped... you can use dynamic stabilisation, but if this fails or the power supply fails, the ring collapses...

A better version of this is a shell around a giant planet, a huge amount of surface area then becomes usable... of course, you still have the problem of dynamic stabilisation, and the whole thing gets pretty heavy pertty quickly...

It's better to use a large amount of comparatively smaller habitats, IMO. If there's a problem it can be isolated easily.

You can already build pretty large cylinders without unobtanium or dynamic stabilisation... a cylinder made of carbon nanotubes could be 460 kilometers in radius and 4600 km in length, with an interior area comparable to that of Russia, and such a structure might be able to be scaled up even larger.

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Sounds awfully hard. Breaking conformity...


You're just not trying hard enough then.

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Hey, you wanted to get the message across.


I know, but there are still many ways to do that without getting arrested.
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macgobhain
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ok holbenilord whatever... all I'm saying is try being more polite. it helps, and people will be more interested in what you have to say.

yes im religious and i believe in science too... who cares.

and the Mayan Calendar. My grandma (she's native) said something that I have never thought of... what if they just ran out of room at 2012? I mean ppl back then really lived a lot more in the now, and they probly didn't see themselves even existing in 1000 years give or take some, so maybe they just thought that would be a good year to cut it off...
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Kamidio
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Considering the amount of room left on the calendar, yes, they ran out and were too lazy to carve more rock.
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