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Is it a challenge?
Topic Started: Jan 1 2011, 10:36 AM (1,659 Views)
Ànraich
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L'évolution Spéculative est moi

There's proof for evolution all around. Any organism, plant or animal, that is domesticated is proof of evolution. You don't think that there's a place where little lap dogs just roam free, do you? I mean, corn literally cannot reproduce without humans doing it for them. Literally. They have no mechanism for natural reproduction. IT IS ONLY BY THE WILL OF HUMANITY THAT CORN EVEN CONTINUES TO EXIST.

I'm from Kansas, I know corn.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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So much that you killed all adults and started worshipping 'He who walks behind the rows'
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Ah i got into a very long argument with a creationist on facebook. It was quite interesting....

Me:
Yes i would like to see why you think evolution does not exist.

Also Henry you go by the book. What makes you think th...at the Bible is right? Why is there not a possibility that the Koran or even the Hindu texts are the right ones and the truth.You use arguments which can be adapted to nearly any religion and so your arguments could prove the existence of any God not just the Christian one. In fact it makes more sense to have an entire pantheon of competing gods much like in the greek myths. Since then the problem of evil is properly explained because conflicting Gods would do so.

Also explain this. God is omniscient which means he knows everything that has happened and everything which will. This is a paradox with the free will argument, because if God knows everything i will do then time is set and i have no free will. Therefore God knows i am going to sin and from the day i was bornand i am guaranteed to go to hell.

Interestingly God cannot create a perfect world nor keep free will. Thus God cannot be omnipotent. He could not keep both and thus man has to suffer, quite a poor omnipotent God if you asked me. Also why are we supposedly punished by what our descendants did? Eve took the apple and ate it. Therefore Adam and Eve were punished, but why must mankind as a whole suffer for the actions of just two people. Also God would have known they were going to do it so he created a world in which mankind was guaranteed to fail.

Creationist 1 :
1. Evolution doesn't exist. Firstly it's only a theory which has not been 100% proven. Second (Dawkins claims) that evolution occurs in tiny stages. So if we imagine a creature without any eyes. If it evolves a tiny part of an eye, it won'...t be fully operational. The vision may be blurred, black and white, upside down or whatever. That creature will inevitably start to rely on that sense it has developed and it will eventually kill it because it thinks one thing about the world when the world around it is very different. It's species will then die out because it relys on something that will betray it.

2. The Bible is the right religious book to follow because there is so much historical evidence to back up the miracles and out of this world events that happened. There is nothing to support the mysterious things that happened in the Koran or any Hindu texts. That's why the Bible is so hard to disagree with. If you believe it's better to believe in a Greek myth then go ahead but it's not really my cup of tea.

3. Have you ever known that somebody would do something before they actually did it? God knows exactly what you will do and revolves his great plan around it. He doesn't tell you what to do. He still gives you free will yet he does know what you're going to do. If you know somebody really well you can predict what they are going to say to certain things. It's similar here except god isn't making a prediction.

4. If you look in the Bible it says that God created (past tense) a perfect world. We ruined it. He created a perfect world. Adam and Eve are a representation of man and woman. We are punished for what they did, because put in that situation, any of us would've done exactly the same. He created us to execute his great master plan. We were guaranteed to betray God, but he already knew that so he could prepare for it. It's like potty training a baby. You know it will fail to crap in a potty the first few times so you train it with a mat underneath. You take a precaution. Eventually it will be perfect. We will be perfect when we die.

Me:
1. Evolution is like Dawkins said happening in small steps. BUT there is evidence such as the fossil record which in some parts distinctly shows the evolution of the different linneages of species. Of course it is insomplete but we have on...ly discovered roughly 10% of the extinct species on Earth so of course there are going to be gaps. Other evidence is that there is a process called selective breeding, in which if i continue to breed dogs which have curly hair and are only a foot high then after generations they begin to become a new sub species. If this breeding continues then a new breed is formed. With the eye example yes it seems implausible and they are working on new theories but not all mutations have to be beneficial or negative. Some just sit there (such as the male nipples) and then after random mutation after another eventually they may add up to form a rudimentary eye. Also animals never rely on one thing, so for the animals which were first evolving eyes they were still at an advantage in a mostly blind world. The first animal to evolve eyes was also the first predator, anomalacaris. The evoltion of vague eyes allowed it to pick out prey thus the evolutionary arms race really kicked off.

2.Where is this historical record? I see no massive deposits of sandstone which is normally evidence of a flooding? Yes Jesus most probably existed but why have we not heard from any other sources spare for the bible about him turning stones to bread or curing leprosy. Remember that the Romans who ruled Judea at the time were particularily big on recording everything so why have we not got any evidence? And also why on earth would the roman governor put to death a man who could save people from starvation, a roman would never get rid of a valuable asset. Of course Jesus would of refused but the romans would of captured him sooner if he had that greater powers.

3. Fair enough to that i can see where you are coming from. The free will argument is very well thought out since you can always adapt it.

4. I liked that last analogy about the whole toddler thing. But why does God even need to plan things? If he is so powerful then why does he just make his end goal instantly. Also the world cannot of started off as paradise the sheer ecological balance just would not work. Why are animals also punished as well? They arent sophonts they have no free will yet they suffer the same way as man.?

Creationist 2:
There's been the reminents of what looks like, or the print of against a huge cave wall, a huge ship, so insanely huge, and it was found on a huge hillside. What does that prove? That there is truth behind the bible stories.

Me:
I dont quite believe that because:

1. The archaeologists were evangelical ones. Normally they are ignored because they simply arent proper scientists. They are amateurs and enthusiasts who have bought all the equipment with very few actual d...egrees between them. Also the group who found it is called the 'Noah's Ark Ministries International' . Biased much?

2. They say due to radiocarbon dating the 'ark' is 4,800 years old. But here they did not say where they took the wood from. Quote National Geographic "The team says radiocarbon-dated wood taken from the discovery site—whose location they're keeping secret for now" Sounds pretty fishy to me.

3. The Turks are trying to make it a UNESCO national heritage site. Hmm well convienitly UNESCO sites to bring in lots and lots of money from tourism so of course they arent going to turn it down even if its a fake.

Creationist 1 :

‎1. Yes. You're right. The organisation that found the ark was an Evangelical one, but many other organisations have looked at the same stuff and have not been able to disprove what they said. There was also a normal group of archaeologists... who discovered things such as Jesus' tomb with no body left in it, and Roman records that stated his death did actually happen. There were also many men who believed in Roman Gods who gave eye witness accounts to the sky going black when he died or the curtain in the temple being torn in two. Pflegon and Thalon are two key examples.

2. Of course they're keeping the location secret. People who aren't Christian might want it destroyed. Extremist Muslims or Atheists might attack and damage it. Then we'll never find out the true answer. It's like watching a documentary about nuclear weapons then them not revealing where they're made and stored. It's done for a perfectly sane and logical reason.

3. The same could be said of the Bible, the God Delusion, The Qua-ran etc. To get a copy of one you have no choice but to pay. They can't all be right. Two must be wrong, yet people keep making money out of them. I believe Dawkins has made around £8,000,000 out of his book. I believe it's fake but they aren't going to stop selling it. People can still buy Mien Kampf by Adolf Hitler. His ideas are not the best (as he claims) but people still buy them so they can see what is going on inside someone's head. If they can make a few pennies out of turning it into a UNESCO camp hen good for them. Why should we not believe because it makes money. Museums make money, but people don't disbelieve what is in them do they?

Me:
1. I have looked for historical evidence of Jesus and this is all i could find: http://delveintojesus.com/Articles/27/Evidence-for-Jesus-Outside-the-Bible.aspx Only one unbiased account gives good evidence for the possibility that miracles... may have been performed. BUT sorcery is different to miracles, the romans saw sorcery as a joke normally silly little things such as soothsaying or planting curses not anything major. I cannot believe that the deeds of Jesus escaped the most meticulous and civilised people at the time.

2. I dont know what you are on about. Nearly all religions on Earth have a flood myth (yes interesting that, so possibly you are just worshipping the wrong interpretation?) try and find me a religion which does not have one, so it would probably be a place of many converging faiths like Jerusalem is today. You have to remember atheists are all about words, we do not actively take violent action. On the news when was the last time you heard of an atheist attack on a church? Never because most of us are happily letting you worship and if the ark was real it would become an area of scientific interest where we would try and find out the truth. If it was built by Noah and contained hundreds ofs species of animals at some point in history then we would smile and say, you got us on that one and we adapt our beliefs.

3. What your saying is that its okay to lie if you make money? A book is a different example though. You write a book to get across your ideas no matter how stupid others may think they are. But its wrong to hoax, it gets in the way of progress. Look at the Piltdown man how much time was wasted studying it only then for some bastard to say it was a joke and so he would get famous. People will lie to get their name in public knowledge... I doubt many people know about Mount Arrarat so it would be great publicity to happen to find the 'ark'. Also a more logical thing would be is to check if there is presence of coprolites. Then we could know what sort of ship it was, it could have just been an extremely large merchant ship? Or maybe it was just a large monument, built in honour of some admiral?

4. Henry you didnt answer about evolution and im genuinely curious do you study the theories of evolution at school?



(Interestingly after that last response i got no answer...)
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Considering we have a lot more knowledge regarding to Mohammed than we do to Jesus...
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Here is a technique to use, don't be a nob to religious people. You can't convince a creationist to believe in religion any more than a smelly Marxist is going to convince me stabbing the Duke of Devonshire will make me more free.

You're the enemy, you're evil and they won't listen to you. Accept that. The only people who might open their minds are religious people who also understand reality. And you'll not help them by being a raving loony.
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I agree, lamna. So much of this conflict stems from the fact that neither side is willing to see the other as containing human beings. That being the case, neither side accomplishes anything through argument because they refuse to accept that the others' preferred method of viewing and explaining the world around them has any merit. Creationists say evolution is ridiculous, simultaneously exposing their own misconceptions on the subject (if evolution really did function such to produce crocoduck it would be ridiculous). Proponents of evolution claim that religious ideology is worthless and thinking in such terms-- even to be on the same page as a conversant-- is a complete waste of time. In the end, both sides yell at each other without ever understanding each other, which is the real waste of time, IMO.
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Quote:
 
if evolution really did function such to produce crocoduck it would be ridiculous

Funny, though.

I'm mostly commenting on my experiences with internet creationists. One in particular, who also liked to accuse me of being a communist. He was one of those 'Obama=AntiChrist' fellows.
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Sounds to me like he'd enjoy conversations I wouldn't. :)
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He also believed just insulting things was funny. So that ended up becoming thinly-veiled racism.
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Delightful. :rolleyes:
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lamna
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I love it when people agree with me. Should have gone into Politics rather than shovelling poop.

I think the Duke of Wellington said it best, "He who fights the French, should be careful not to become French" A confrontational angry atheist, *Looks at Iberia* is the perfect propaganda tool to show Christians why they should not trust atheists/free thinkers/whatever the hell we are.
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There's evodence that Jebus wasn't even one person rather than a bunch of guys with the same name.
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Are you plausible?

lamna
 
whatever the hell we are

Human beings. Flawed, fallible creatures doing the best to improve the community the best way we know how and occasionally undermining our own intentions on that front. Just like them.
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Jan 3 2011, 09:13 PM
Just like them.
Ahahaha! Total burn!
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It wasn't intended as such.
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