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Propulsive Upstroke; A question about flight
Topic Started: Dec 31 2010, 05:23 PM (1,211 Views)
Spugpow
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I've been thinking about dragons recently, and how they might fly. In the scenario I've envisioned, little rib-gliding lizards from the Mesozoic evolve powered flight. The problem is, where do they attach big wing muscles if the chest is already taken? I'm thinking the flight muscles attach to a ridge on the back of the spine, providing a propulsive upstroke for the wings rather than a downstroke. Is this possible, or is there some overwhelming aerodynamic advantage to a downstroke?
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Carlos
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Well, most flying vetebrates have/had their wing muscles attached to both the back and sternum, as opposed to birds which had both the muscles to pull the wing up and those to pull the wing down attached to the sternum (which is why both pterosaurs and bats have shallowed sternums)

Maybe dragons are like birds, only that they have both sets of muscles attached to the back rather than to the sternum
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Spugpow
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Huh, so how do a bird's muscles pull the wings up? Some kind of "pulley"?

Yes, I suppose both muscles could be on the back, but is a propulsive upstroke possible?
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colddigger
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Wouldn't that shove air above the organism? I can see it being possible, but it's careen into the ground...
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Ànraich
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colddigger
Dec 31 2010, 06:38 PM
Wouldn't that shove air above the organism? I can see it being possible, but it's careen into the ground...
Not really, because bees do it. Even though physics says bees shouldn't be able to fly, they bend their wings in flight to deliver thrust on both the up and down stroke. Not sure how that would work in a lizard though.
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Carlos
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Spugpow
Dec 31 2010, 06:29 PM
Huh, so how do a bird's muscles pull the wings up? Some kind of "pulley"?
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As you can see, the muscles that pull the wing up are attached to the sternum as well; how they ended up in that position I have no idea.
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Spugpow
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Bird's wings don't really generate lift by pushing air down, but by increasing airflow over the wing to generate lift. The wing does push air backwards to propel the bird forward, and
I figure that could just as easily happen on the upstroke as the downstroke.
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Kamidio
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The Artist Formerly Known As Parasky
Dec 31 2010, 06:55 PM
colddigger
Dec 31 2010, 06:38 PM
Wouldn't that shove air above the organism? I can see it being possible, but it's careen into the ground...
Not really, because bees do it. Even though physics says bees shouldn't be able to fly, they bend their wings in flight to deliver thrust on both the up and down stroke. Not sure how that would work in a lizard though.
Silly. Bees are the spawn of Blue MOTHERF**KING Oak. /joke

I seriously have no idea how this would work. Other than jumping off of cliffs and gliding down.
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Holben
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Perhaps if you wrap the muscles round an extension of the sternum, joined to the pelvis? The longer the muscles are, the greater the moment.

How big are the dragons you want? Which group of gliders do you want them derived from?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

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sam999
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If they breath fire somehow, simple.
1. Aim head downwards
2. FLAME ON!
3. Flight
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Holben
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Maybe not, the amount of thrust-fuel needed would be incredibly heavy.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Dayshade
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If it would be possible to do it with hydrogen (lighter than air), which they traditionally use for their fire, it might work. Sorry if that makes no sense, I'm not that good with flight.
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Holben
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You'd need to produce far more hydrogen than seems possible.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Dayshade
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Hmm, well I believe either one of their lungs became a hydrogen chamber or they developed another air chamber for hydrogen.
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Ànraich
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Dayshade
Jan 2 2011, 12:59 PM
If it would be possible to do it with hydrogen (lighter than air), which they traditionally use for their fire, it might work. Sorry if that makes no sense, I'm not that good with flight.
Try methane. It's lighter than air and is naturally produced by the digestive process. If the animal has wings, it doesn't need the gases to cause all the lift. Just make it light enough that it can fly.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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