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Fully marine birds after K/T boundry; What if the Hesperornids survived?
Topic Started: Dec 30 2010, 11:46 AM (850 Views)
SSJRaptog
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I know we have discussed the possibilities of fully marine birds in the future. But let say the K/T extinction was mild enough to let the Hesperornids survive. Of all the birds (Both alive and extinct), Hesperornis and it's relatives adapted the best to a marine habitat.

If they survived the K/T boundry, could they have evolved into fully marine birds?
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Forbiddenparadise64
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Some species may have only come on land to lay eggs apparently, so maybe they could have taken over the ocean instead of whales.
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

I'd say they could. But unless hespiornis could evolve a pouch for their egg so they don't have to return to land, I say cetaceans are going to beat them out in certain areas.
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Forbiddenparadise64
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Or they could thin out their egg shells, say if a random mutation occured just after the extinction that did so. And than they'd be in the oceans 14 million years before cetaceans even dip their toes in the water. Now they could make very interesting marine animals.
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Yes, true. But unless the hespiornis descendents could give birth to live (or pouched) young, cetaceans are going to win out no matter when they evolve.
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Forbiddenparadise64
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I meant if they thinned the egg shells than developed ovivivapory afterwards, so they'd become fully aquatic as soon as 60 million BC in this scenario: long before Pakicetus evolves, or even diverges from hippos (genetic studies show about 56 million years ago to be accurate). So, who'd want to speculate what hesperornid descendants would look like. Would they be like plesiosaurs, or whales, or totally different to any other marine tetrapods?
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Ook
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well,i heard that archosaurs and testudines embryos need calcium from the shell,so they cant simply became ovoviviparous...all other reptiles however can be ovoviviparous,and at least one species from almost all groups give birth to love young(snakes,lizards...)
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

In that case, that'll work. Though there are some birds that physically can't thin their shells. I don't know if hespiornis is that kind of bird or not.

Where's JohnFaa when you need him, eh?

I'd say they'd be more like dolphins. Their feet will, undoubtedly, evolve into a large caudal fin, which would cause their body to be dolphin-like.



EDIT: Don't need JohnFaa after all. Slivovica hit the nail on the head.
Edited by Canis Lupis, Dec 30 2010, 05:13 PM.
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Forbiddenparadise64
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If we assume the thinning of the eggshell is due to an increase in the actual calcium in the egg itself? I dunno, I'm just being persistant, it isn't really impossible, it's just really unlikely. and this is just a scenario assuming it does happen, right? I wonder how teh lepidosaur reptiles were able to get thin egg shells? I mean they are more closely related to archosaurs than testudines, and yet archosaurs and testudines both have hard egg shells while lepidosaurs don't? That may show that lepidosaurs originally ahd hard egg shells but thinned out. Maybe a similar thing could happen here. Who knows? Besides, scientists have been wrong before... ;)
Prepare for the Future Walking with the future: Allozoic (pts 4-6)http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3252142/14/#new

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Venatosaurus
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Well, wouldn't it be rather difficult for them to swim like cetaceans, their spines are fused, thus giving the little flexibility. Of course their legs could provide such propulsion in such a manner, or stayed the same, but increased in size and habit...maybe we'd even get Duckgongs, like in Spec, those these are actual birds.



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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Yeah, I was more talking about their propulsion method.
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Carlos
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Spec has the best example of this, believe me; if you check the "forum", you can see that hesperornithes took over the niche of dolphins in the northern oceans, with a titanic sperm whale analogue occuring all over the world. There, they keep their eggs in pouches, so they are completly marine; with enough time, they will replace the mosasaurs and penguins.

Also, pouches are the only way dinosaurs can become fully aquatic. As mentioned before, crocodillians, dinosaurs and turtles are dependent on the calcium on the shells to develop their skeleton; to become ovoviviparous the shells would have to become very calcium poor, which means the baby would not develop a skeleton. No skeleton, no chances of surviving
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