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| Parrot Sapients; an idea I had | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 26 2010, 06:19 PM (1,230 Views) | |
| Canis Lupis | Dec 26 2010, 06:19 PM Post #1 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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I recently "sold my services" (not in that way. Get your mind out of the gutter speccers!) to Dragon wasp. He has an interesting alien race in his project "Sodois III" and has the beginnings of a language (BTW, if someone is interested in hiring me for their own language...). So I offered my (albeit primitive) linguistic services to him. I've started to work on pronouns for his language. For pronouns, you really need to figure out how each member of the species views each other and themselves (if the species an ultra-extreme Communist society (such as in "Anthem" by Ayn Rand), then completely eliminate the singular pronouns then. Etc etc) "Wait a minute buster! What does this have to do with parrot sapients?" I'm getting to that. Also, you all probably know by now that I have a big interest in sapient societies. Not so much designing them (mine usually always turn out too humanesque), but coming up with different societies and languages (as stated above). "That still has nothing to do with parrot sapients. Don't make me angry Canis." Your patience is greatly appreciated. ![]() The idea of parrot sapients has been greatly discussed around this forum for quite some time. They seem to be plausible. Their society could, in a way, develop like a human society (though, obviously, some technologies will not evolve. Cars will, in my opinion, be one of them). In addition, they imitate human language, though their understanding of it is debatable. However, this proves that a parrot mouth and vocal chords could speak a human language. Likewise, humans could potentially speak a parrot language. So, in the vein of all alt. evo projects, let's divert the timeline. Let's suppose that, while humans were evolving in Africa around 5MYA, sapient parrots were evolving in South America around the same time. So I've got some questions I'd like to ask, and some I can answer right now: 1. What would cause parrots to evolve to sapience at this point in time anyway? 2. What kind of society would they likely evolve? Technology? 3. What would their interaction be with humans? Obviously, humans would still cross into America and parrots would spread across the equator, island hopping to Australia and maybe to tropical Asia. 4. Assuming this spread, what would happen to human society? With the prescence of another sapient (and an avian one at that), how would things like religion, government, civil rights, language, etc progress? 5. Again, assuming this spread, what would happen to human history? How would it change? 6. What would the language of the parrots be like? (I'll do my own research on the mouth and vocal chords, but help in this area is greatly appreciated. After finding out what sounds are possible for a parrot, I'll write the language, maybe trying some of their writing (would parrots use their feet or mouths?) 7. How much would the prescence of parrot languages affect human languages (and vice versa)? BTW, I could very possibly turn this into a story, so help, questions, and input would be greatly appreciated. |
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| Ànraich | Dec 26 2010, 07:37 PM Post #2 |
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L'évolution Spéculative est moi
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Flying sapients are highly unlikely, considering the brain resources (brainsources) required for flight don't leave many left over for intelligence and conceptualization. But, for the sake of discussion, let's say they do. I imagine they would have a very different view of technology than humans. For them it would supplement their lives rather than define it. Flying would be their main mode of travel, and because they can't stand on their wings using tools would have to involve them standing still (assuming they use their talons, though I guess they could also use their beaks for manipulation). Tools would likely be lightweight for easy carrying, and probably stored in some kind of "shoulder bag" that does not hang loose so as to reduce the drag produced by it. They would probably have a better understanding of meteorology than humans, being more sensitive to the currents of air and whatnot. Their knowledge of astronomy would be debatable, depending on whether or not they could see the stars well enough to learn their movements. They would likely also have a better understanding of magnetism, as I read in National Geographic that birds can literally see magnetic fields, even "shades" of magnetism, as well as ultraviolet colors (though whether this is true for all birds or just migratory ones I'm not sure of). I doubt they would have great knowledge of stone tools or metallurgy, though that is potentially something they could learn from humans. Humans likely wouldn't be aware of their sapience at first, though it will eventually be made obvious to them one way or another. We would honestly probably treat them as inferior to ourselves at first, or perhaps just leave them alone altogether. An exchange of knowledge would probably not occur until the scientific revolution, since parrots likely wouldn't develop their technology beyond primitive wooden tools (though this leaves open the possibility of them advancing farther in other fields, such as philosophy or maybe even psychology). Human civilization would probably develop with more respect for nature and animals, and we would probably never develop that "humans aren't animals we're better than animals" idea that seems so prevalent in our modern society. |
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We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself
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| Canis Lupis | Dec 26 2010, 08:33 PM Post #3 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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I can see your point about fliers being unlikely sapients. but like you said, let's assume that parrots can for the sake of argument. Like you said, technology would be slow to develop, mostly due to the way they would manipulate. But I can see a greater push for metalurgy in parrot societies. Stone is heavy and poor for a flier to utilize. So I'd say that things like copper weaponry would developed a lot faster than in humans (admittedly, I am a bit inspired by the "Guardians of Ga'Hoole" series I read as a kid). Anyway, with this great weaponry that would probably be worn on the talons and beak (admittedly, I am a bit inspired by the "Guardians of Ga'Hoole" series I read as a kid. Though parrots would be likely to wear them there). Due to this weaponry and their flight, I can imagine that parrot mercenaries would likely be hired by military societies. They'd probably only be seen as flying, talking, non-ridable horses with weapons they can carry themselves, but I see these parrot soldiers as a great asset to military societies like Sparta, Persia, Alexander the Great's army, Rome, etc etc. Also, I'd assume gunpowder would be developed a lot sooner, and probably by parrots (though humans would probably utilize it faster). Parrots, as we know, eat clay for the trace elements. Now, clay is known to have been used by the ancients as miracle "cures" (like bones to the Chinese). Let's assume that mining clay would be big business in parrot societies and that, with copper tech (let's face it. I doubt parrots would get past copper. Unless iron is also lightweight. I'm no blacksmith), many clay miners would wear copper to mine for clay. Now, let's assume that in some mine, they find and strike a supply of flint with their copper-covered beak and it produces a spark. And bam! You've got the first gunpowder (after you combine it with other elements first. ).Anywho, about astronomy, I'd say they'd be a bit worse off than humans, most likely because of their manipulation. I doubt that you could make a great telescope with just a foot and a beak. Also, with their ability to fly, they could get a lot closer to the stars than man (in a way). So stars would probably play a big part in their religion. In fact, a parrot version of Dante would probably write about the nine orbs of hell (planes of existence if you prefer Hinduism). They'd probably view each ball in the sky (Sun, Mercury, Venus, the Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the stars, and the Beyond (most astronomies believe something exists beyond the stars)) as a place you go after death, each varying in degrees of punishment or paradise. This belief, in conjunction with their slow technology development and greater affinity for philosophy, would probably make parrot society essentially a theocracy, putting the medieval Catholic church and Puritan society to shame. Anywho, with their ability to mimic human language, I can see the parrots, particularly in India and Southeast Asia, being used as messengers by the reigning ruler. I can also see parrot messengers used in ancient Rome due to the wide diversity of their people and size of the empire. I can actually see India, Southeast Asia, and Pacific Islanders (including Aborigines) treating parrots rather well. I mean, once the parrots start expanding near the end of the Pleistocene (at around the same time as mankind), these locations will almost be like native habitats for the sapient parrots. Thus humans and parrots will have had more time to coexist in these areas. Though in South America, where the parrots would've evolved, I see the Inca and tribal societes viewing them with indifference. In fact, some societies may view the parrots as demons of the forest or fairy tales. But yeah, it seems like parrots would have to wait for the scientific revolution to become quite advanced. |
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| urufumarukai | Dec 26 2010, 08:47 PM Post #4 |
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Hitler is my spirit animal
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This would make a great story/project/whatever. But I think human-parrot relations would be strained, I'm not sure early humans would take the parrot society seriously. Conflict between to two would be interesting as well with human archers haveing the upper hand. The parrots could likely end up as slaves for the humans. |
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Henry you dick! Mr. Hands "Am I boring? Depends, do you like watching documentaries about 19th and 18th century warfare, having complicated feelings about bismark and crying over the film of winston churchill putting flowers on FDR's grave. If so then I'm so fucking boring. " | |
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| Canis Lupis | Dec 26 2010, 09:13 PM Post #5 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Yeah, probably. Though never underestime the power of dropping a rock on opponent's heads. Though I'd say parrot slaves would experience a bit more freedom than human slaves. I mean, it's easier for parrots to run away and you don't want to force your slave to run away. So a parrot slave owner would need to treat their parrot slave well in order to keep them "on the job." EDIT: when I turn this into a story/book, should I write in from a modern perspective like in "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley as your typical book or should I write in the form of a history book? Edited by Canis Lupis, Dec 26 2010, 09:17 PM.
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| urufumarukai | Dec 26 2010, 09:41 PM Post #6 |
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Hitler is my spirit animal
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Either one would work out lovely, you could post a sample of each and have various members vote. |
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Henry you dick! Mr. Hands "Am I boring? Depends, do you like watching documentaries about 19th and 18th century warfare, having complicated feelings about bismark and crying over the film of winston churchill putting flowers on FDR's grave. If so then I'm so fucking boring. " | |
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| Canis Lupis | Dec 26 2010, 09:44 PM Post #7 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Alright. I'll either decide on my own or take your advice. Probably the latter. |
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| Zoroaster | Dec 26 2010, 11:14 PM Post #8 |
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Fecund Fundiment
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If I was choosing a parrot species to head towards, and evolve sapience, I'd probably go for the African grey, or better yet, the New Zealand Kia - imagine the Maori arriving in NZ around 1500 and finding another sapient being already occupied the island(s) - an land of birds, gigantic eagles, and moa. The Kia are amazingly intelligent and resourceful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit - oops - that should be "kea"... Edited by Zoroaster, Dec 26 2010, 11:16 PM.
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The Speccer Formerly Known As Magoo... My exobio project(s) : Hormizd / Zarathustra ![]() | |
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| Ànraich | Dec 26 2010, 11:16 PM Post #9 |
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L'évolution Spéculative est moi
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What? Have you never seen Polly? They'd just clip the parrots' wings. |
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We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself
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| Canis Lupis | Dec 26 2010, 11:18 PM Post #10 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Yeah, I'd imagine some would do that. But a parrot couldn't carry much if it's wings were clipped. Only what it could fit in its beak. EDIT: I'll admit. The African grays are way smarter than the South American parrots. But I just wanted to spread the sapience across Earth. As for my not going with the kea, I wanted something that flew. Though keas are very, very smart. Edited by Canis Lupis, Dec 26 2010, 11:22 PM.
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| Zoroaster | Dec 26 2010, 11:29 PM Post #11 |
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Fecund Fundiment
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one thing to note - parrots don't have binocular vision... I used to keep Cockatiels in an aviary (we call them Weeros in West Australia - where they're native), and would watch them closely, whenever they wanted to concentrate on something, or "focus" they'd turn their head to one side, e.g. looking at the ground from a perch... I've seen this in other wild parrots too... So manipulating tools would be difficult for them... I once developed a race of semi-sapient parrots, in an Australia that was never settled by Aboriginals. They were longer legged than most parrots, and were generally "ground" parrots, they "knuckle" walked to protect the sensitive under-sides of their talons - and used tactile spatial thinking to manipulate, rather than vision, as a primary source of feedback and information... |
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The Speccer Formerly Known As Magoo... My exobio project(s) : Hormizd / Zarathustra ![]() | |
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| Zoroaster | Dec 26 2010, 11:30 PM Post #12 |
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Fecund Fundiment
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Kea can fly... you're maybe confusing them with the Kakapo ? Kea are excellent flyers... |
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The Speccer Formerly Known As Magoo... My exobio project(s) : Hormizd / Zarathustra ![]() | |
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| Canis Lupis | Dec 26 2010, 11:41 PM Post #13 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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*facepalm* Yeah, I'm confusing it with the kakapo. Darn it! In that case, maybe the kea would be a better ancestor. Still have the binocular vision problem? |
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| Zoroaster | Dec 27 2010, 12:11 AM Post #14 |
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Fecund Fundiment
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Binocular vision - probably still not have that capability - but I wouldn't think it would be a show stopper... |
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The Speccer Formerly Known As Magoo... My exobio project(s) : Hormizd / Zarathustra ![]() | |
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| Canis Lupis | Dec 27 2010, 01:33 AM Post #15 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Nice pic. ![]() So what are modern kakapo social groups like? I tried to find it on the internet, but it sent me to parrot owner forums. |
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