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The truth about Grendel; I've discovered what Grendel really is!
Topic Started: Aug 31 2010, 10:40 AM (3,647 Views)
Holben
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I don't think that was the implied conclusion.
But it's open to interpretation, i suppose.

I'm sure the FP, being ridiculously overpowered, can swim underwater for hours or something to that effect. The designers just hadn't thought of it.

Well, have a look at ambulocetus' pelvis. It'll take a lot to go bipedal- oh, and make sure to find out all the negative conditions which came with our transfer to bipedalism.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Ddraig Goch
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Does this remind you of anything?

>.< Hm. Maybe I should have rephrased that...
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Spartan Delta
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Sep 2 2010, 09:20 AM
Spartan Delta
Sep 2 2010, 09:08 AM
Practically Uninformed
Sep 1 2010, 01:07 PM
I know you explained it with a "semi-bipedal" possibility, but when something takes such a lifestyle as that, they seem to require a very specific build: a body with small forelimbs, a long and thick tail, and its center of gravity being in its pelvic region (i.e. a huge butt). Currently, very few mammals are known to be bipedal at all (us included), and the only animal that seems to be able to meet semi-biped criteria is the pangolin (which is really really weird).
While it is an intriguing concept-an extreme divergence from a very popular evolutionary line in mammals- it doesn't seem to fit what we know the proto-whales were capable of. Not to mention, there is a lot of literature that points to this thing being very man-like, with people even going so far as to call him a descendent of the biblical Cain.
...but, then again, it's theorized that ancient sailors mistook manatees for humanoid mermaids, so Grendel might've been an Ambulocetus descendant (whose stock, btw, lived in the Middle East).
EXACTLY! People then didn't know how to describe things as well, so I'm sure they'd still associate the bipedal standing as him being man-like.
And I didn't necessarily say it had to be Ambulocetus. Heck, it could be any of the proto-whales in that line.

I know that known proto-whales didn't have that type of body - I wasn't arguing otherwise. I was just saying that it's possible that Grendel could be one that did. I mean, there aren't any crocodilians with that gait alive today, and here we have Egyptians worshiping a bipedal crocodile god. So why would a biped whale be so unreasonable?


El Squibbonator
 
Quadruped? Carnivorous? Sonar? I think I know. . . Grendel was a Future Predator!

Nope. Grendel's semi-aquatic. Remember, they live in a lake?

But as a matter of fact, I did look to Primeval in designing Grendel's mother. For her, I imagined something like a Mer, but with reduced hind legs and larger.
And in fact, the poem says that the lake was on fire during the night, and that might be interpreted as a glow...

...I think Primeval fans can see where I'm going here.
I think I do...
...GRENDEL'S A TIME LORD!
Well, actually, I was gonna just say that it was an anomaly in time, but if that's what you wanna say.

Sliverlord
 
I'm sure the FP, being ridiculously overpowered, can swim underwater for hours or something to that effect. The designers just hadn't thought of it.

Well, have a look at ambulocetus' pelvis. It'll take a lot to go bipedal- oh, and make sure to find out all the negative conditions which came with our transfer to bipedalism.

First off, I have problems with that, primarily because it's hard to rip off the arm of something that moves like the wind itself.

As for the pelvis, I know. But then again, who's to say it couldn't happen?
I mean, there was a primate that managed to adjust it's pelvis (evolution-wise) to enable it to walk bipedally. (hint, hint)

There's also the crocodilian Pristichampsus, which may or may not have been able to stand on two legs.

And of course, we CAN'T forget that one little reptile that changed its pelvis to allow for a bipedal form of locomotion, and managed to spawn a whole group of beasts that dominated the Mesozoic, not to mention the several offshoots that started up in the Triassic.

So if primates and little lizards can change to walk on two legs, why not a prehistoric whale? I mean, it's not like we're asking for one to wear a tuxedo and go tap-dancing, ya know - just want it to at least be able to stand up.
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The prehistoric whale doesn't seem to have an incentive. What problem would it be solving that would've been plaguing every old walking whale by standing up?
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Holben
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Sep 3 2010, 12:11 PM
Sliverlord
 
I'm sure the FP, being ridiculously overpowered, can swim underwater for hours or something to that effect. The designers just hadn't thought of it.

Well, have a look at ambulocetus' pelvis. It'll take a lot to go bipedal- oh, and make sure to find out all the negative conditions which came with our transfer to bipedalism.

First off, I have problems with that, primarily because it's hard to rip off the arm of something that moves like the wind itself.

As for the pelvis, I know. But then again, who's to say it couldn't happen?
I mean, there was a primate that managed to adjust it's pelvis (evolution-wise) to enable it to walk bipedally. (hint, hint)

There's also the crocodilian Pristichampsus, which may or may not have been able to stand on two legs.

And of course, we CAN'T forget that one little reptile that changed its pelvis to allow for a bipedal form of locomotion, and managed to spawn a whole group of beasts that dominated the Mesozoic, not to mention the several offshoots that started up in the Triassic.
Beowulf had superpowers, apparently. He was stronger than any normal man.

So it happened once, amongst billions of mutations. Doesn't make it more likely that it'll happen again. Oh, and we had motivation due to forest decline. So the conditions are very different.

Not for long or well though. And it's not related.

The pelvises of those aniamls were far more primitive than that of a whale, and not to mention the genetic problems associated with alterations in the axial skeltons of mammals...

Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Scrublord
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Interestingly, there actually was a Primeval episode where the Egyptian crocodile god turned out to BE a Pristichampsus!
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Spartan Delta
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Sep 3 2010, 12:30 PM
The prehistoric whale doesn't seem to have an incentive. What problem would it be solving that would've been plaguing every old walking whale by standing up?
In fact, our friend Holbenilord provided the answer to that.
"Holbenilord"
 
So it happened once, amongst billions of mutations. Doesn't make it more likely that it'll happen again. Oh, and we had motivation due to forest decline. So the conditions are very different.

Dija hear that? MUTATIONS. There was no real problem, aside of course from forest declining. He could be just a simple freak of nature - a creature that had no need to walk upright, but developed a semi-erect gait.

"El Squibbonator"
 
Interestingly, there actually was a Primeval episode where the Egyptian crocodile god turned out to BE a Pristichampsus!

Interestingly enough, that was my inspiration.
"If Pristichampsus could've inspired an Egyptian God", I thought, "then what about other gods/monsters? How about Grendel?"

And so, my theory.
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sam999
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El Squibbonator
Sep 1 2010, 02:16 PM
Quadruped? Carnivorous? Sonar? I think I know. . . Grendel was a Future Predator!
I had grendel as an semi-aquatic Gorgonops or some other type of synapsid.
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DValdron
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Uhm, I'm not sure why this has to be so much more complicated.

Why not a couple of displaced polar bears. Big bad predators, some standing 8 or 9 feet tall when standing erect, able to decapitate a seal with one swipe of the paw, semi-aquatic, with strong mother-cub bonding.
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Zoroaster
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Isn't there already a passage in Beowulf where he goes for a swim in the sea (probably the Baltic I'd imagine) and fights what sounds like a female whale or some other aquatic beastie? Nearly drowns or something?
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Spartan Delta
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Jan 1 2011, 06:17 PM
Uhm, I'm not sure why this has to be so much more complicated.

Why not a couple of displaced polar bears. Big bad predators, some standing 8 or 9 feet tall when standing erect, able to decapitate a seal with one swipe of the paw, semi-aquatic, with strong mother-cub bonding.
Nope; thought of that already. The bear-theory is displaced by one small detail.

Grendel is sensitive to singing. When he hears song and loud noises, he is pained, and goes to take out the source. Whales use echolocation to navigate, so it only makes sense that singing and loud noises would hurt him and bring about his attack.
Polar bears, while they can stand up and are strong enough to live up to the destructive side of Grendel, are not that sensitive in hearing.

That's why I ruled out the bear - no bear has such fine-tuned hearing. That part would only happen for either a bat or a whale. And since bats can't swim or survive for long in cold climates, that leaves only one possibility.


Quote:
 
Isn't there already a passage in Beowulf where he goes for a swim in the sea (probably the Baltic I'd imagine) and fights what sounds like a female whale or some other aquatic beastie? Nearly drowns or something?

That's Beowulf the man, and no, it wasn't a whale. As I recall, those were sea monsters, like squid and serpents. I don't remember reading about him killing a whale.
(Well, aside from Grendel. ;) )


Quote:
 
I had grendel as an semi-aquatic Gorgonops or some other type of synapsid.

That could work, but the main problem with that is that those mammal-like reptiles all but died out about, oh say 230,000,000 years or so before this story came about. It'd be very unlikely that one line could survive long enough to produce said monster for the story.
Plus, we have no idea if Synapsids had echolocation or any form of sensitive hearing, or if they could survive the freezing temperatures of ancient Northern Europe.
That's why I chose the ancient whale - because it was closer in time to the story than other similar creatures.
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DValdron
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Jan 20 2011, 11:54 AM
DValdron
Jan 1 2011, 06:17 PM
Uhm, I'm not sure why this has to be so much more complicated.

Why not a couple of displaced polar bears. Big bad predators, some standing 8 or 9 feet tall when standing erect, able to decapitate a seal with one swipe of the paw, semi-aquatic, with strong mother-cub bonding.
Nope; thought of that already. The bear-theory is displaced by one small detail.

Grendel is sensitive to singing. When he hears song and loud noises, he is pained, and goes to take out the source. Whales use echolocation to navigate, so it only makes sense that singing and loud noises would hurt him and bring about his attack.
Polar bears, while they can stand up and are strong enough to live up to the destructive side of Grendel, are not that sensitive in hearing.

That's why I ruled out the bear - no bear has such fine-tuned hearing. That part would only happen for either a bat or a whale. And since bats can't swim or survive for long in cold climates, that leaves only one possibility.


Quote:
 
Isn't there already a passage in Beowulf where he goes for a swim in the sea (probably the Baltic I'd imagine) and fights what sounds like a female whale or some other aquatic beastie? Nearly drowns or something?

That's Beowulf the man, and no, it wasn't a whale. As I recall, those were sea monsters, like squid and serpents. I don't remember reading about him killing a whale.
(Well, aside from Grendel. ;) )


Quote:
 
I had grendel as an semi-aquatic Gorgonops or some other type of synapsid.

That could work, but the main problem with that is that those mammal-like reptiles all but died out about, oh say 230,000,000 years or so before this story came about. It'd be very unlikely that one line could survive long enough to produce said monster for the story.
Plus, we have no idea if Synapsids had echolocation or any form of sensitive hearing, or if they could survive the freezing temperatures of ancient Northern Europe.
That's why I chose the ancient whale - because it was closer in time to the story than other similar creatures.
Maybe we're thinking about this in the wrong way. Whales sonar is a fairly late development coming after whales had committed to an aquatic environment. I don't think that the fossil record shows any particularly acute development of hearing or semi-sonar or full sonar for protowhales or semiaquatic whales.

Even if we assumed so, I'm not sure it would be adversely affected by the sounds of singing and partying well away from Grendel's Bog or Lake. How would that upset or irritate a sonar system or even an acute hearing system. I can't see the noise level being much beyond 20 or 30 decibels. It's likely to be well short of a rock concert or a jet engine. And its a long way off, which indicates that the intensity will tail off with distance.

I would assume that a painful or disturbing acoustic would be either subsonic or hypersonic, but I don't think that the hall's partying noise would reach those high and low pitches.

Finally, why does it bother Grendel, but it doesn't seem to bother his mother. Only Grendel raids, Mom stays home.

So let's think creatively. The noise isn't causing Grendel physical pain, rather, the noise is causing for want of a better word, 'spiritual pain' or 'emotional pain' particular to Grendel's own situation. What pain could this be?

Consider Grendel's situation. He's a big powerful monster, capable of kicking Danes all day long. And he lives in a bog with his mother. Probably eats cheesies. So where's Grendelette? Grendel-babe? Misses Grendel? Assuming no incest, Grendel's not getting laid, and he's clearly a physically mature, powerful critter - at least adolescent or late adolescent. Grendel should be feeling his oats, getting frisky.... But Nada.

Now, let's assume that the Grendels, whatever they are, are big powerful animals. Possibly a carnivore. Possibly a very aggressive, very territorial herbivore. They're rare. Extremely extremely rare. Possibly an ice age species on the way to extinction. Grendel and his Mom may be the last ones left.

Which may mean that there's never going to be a Misses Grendel. There's never going to be little Grendelkids. All Grendel has to look forward to is hanging out with Mom, and growing old alone.

Now, let's think about our big powerful carnivore, territorial herbivore. Big dangerous animals like lots of room to themselves. Which often makes mating kind of tricky. You're monopolizing a 500 square mile territory, how do you get a girlfriend? She doesn't just drop in. So two things happen - either there's a mating season where the behaviour rules get flexible, or there's a signal that goes out when the lovelies get receptive. Usually both.

What would that signal be? How's about this. At a particular season of the year, the Grendelina's put out a call for a mate. A long, low bellow. Something that will carry and carry and carry across the moores. Something that in pitches or intensity or pattern, may resemble a particular voice or collection of voices, or
instrument or drinking sound in a certain hall.

So there's Grendel, hanging out in the bog with mom. Probably going off for some alone time pretty frequently being a horny adolescent and all. He doesn't even have the internet. So one night, he's pining away and he hears the call. Its not perfect, but its pretty damned close. Hot damn!

So Grendel gets all spiffed up, climbs out of the bog, and goes out for a happy, sexy encounter with a female of his species. Yummy.

But when he gets there, what does he find? Does he find a sexy and receptive Grendelina waiting for her beau to give her a night of passion? Does he find his thrills on blueberry hill? Does he finally lose his virginity? Does little Grendel finally get out of Grendel-trousers to have a partay?

Nope. Instead of getting laid, all he ends up with is a bunch of obnoxious drunken geats. Little Grendel in the pants will not be getting happy times. What you have is a horny, frustrated, and very very very angry monster.

And if that's not bad enough, the damned Geats keep doing it! Sadistically getting his hopes up night after night, dragging him out of the bog in hopes of finally getting laid, but at the last minute, like Lucy with the football, tearing it away! Yeah, Grendel's going to dish out big hurting over that.

So what's Grendel really? How's about this. I'm thinking a relic offshoot of the Cave Bear. An Ice Age critter.

From my reading on Polar Bears, it seems that they evolved relatively quickly. Polar Bears diverged from Brown Bears roughly 150,000 years ago, and seem to have reached final form as recently as 30,000 years ago. They seem to have been North American Arctic critters though, although their current range takes them to Svalbard and the arctic fringes of Siberia.

But during the Ice Age, Europe was pretty glaciated. There was an evolutionary environment which supported Cave Bears, but perhaps didn't allow Polar Bears entry - the glaciers amounting to a geographical barrier, keeping Polar Bears in North America. But there's a vacant Polar Bear niche.

So an offshoot of the Cave Bears emerges. Semi-aquatic, a shoreline feeder and hunter. Call them Swamp or Marsh bears, occupying something very close to a Polar Bear niche, but recognizeably a distinct animal. Could be weird looking, maybe they have blubber and leathery hide instead of fur. Probably very long lived, very slow growing, mating infrequently, occupying huge feeding territories. The ice age goes by by, the Marsh Bears mostly go extinct with the end of most of their habitat, with only dwindling relic populations, one of which is in Denmark.

Come the middle ages, only Grendel and his Mom are left.
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Zorcuspine
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I found a picture drawn of this monster
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Perhaps he was in reality an early hominid (Like an Australopithecus) that primitive people thought was a monster and over time was made alot scarier than he probably really was. Folk lore has a tendency for exaggerating things...
Edited by Zorcuspine, Jan 26 2011, 06:59 PM.
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Spartan Delta
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First off, to mister dee-valdron-ator, you're missing one crucial factor in this. You're assuming that at the time of the legend that there will be a healthy population.

Had it ever occured to you that maybe Grendel was the last of his kind? Or even that he and his mother were the only two of them left? Maybe the species was slipping into extinction by this time. Grendel wouldn't get laid even if Beowulf HADN'T ripped off his arm, because THERE WERE NO GIRLS!!!!!!

Ugh... I give up trying to convince you. I've gotten out my idea, that's good enough for me. :)

(And for banana-lad there? As I said at the start of this, Grendel's appearance varies. Some describe him as wolfman, some as swamp monster, some as big man.
Personally, I prefer my random, nonsensical theory that he's a freak of nature that came from amphibious whales. That's just what makes sense for my twisted logic; it's ok if you find flaws with it. That's what makes this world awesome. :)
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DValdron
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Jan 29 2011, 12:14 AM
First off, to mister dee-valdron-ator, you're missing one crucial factor in this. You're assuming that at the time of the legend that there will be a healthy population.

Had it ever occured to you that maybe Grendel was the last of his kind? Or even that he and his mother were the only two of them left? Maybe the species was slipping into extinction by this time. Grendel wouldn't get laid even if Beowulf HADN'T ripped off his arm, because THERE WERE NO GIRLS!!!!!!

Ugh... I give up trying to convince you. I've gotten out my idea, that's good enough for me. :)

(And for banana-lad there? As I said at the start of this, Grendel's appearance varies. Some describe him as wolfman, some as swamp monster, some as big man.
Personally, I prefer my random, nonsensical theory that he's a freak of nature that came from amphibious whales. That's just what makes sense for my twisted logic; it's ok if you find flaws with it. That's what makes this world awesome. :)
"mister dee-valdron-ator"? Where did that come from?

"Had it ever occured to me that maybe Grendel was the last of his kind?" Actually yes.

"Now, let's assume that the Grendels, whatever they are, are big powerful animals. Possibly a carnivore. Possibly a very aggressive, very territorial herbivore. They're rare. Extremely extremely rare. Possibly an ice age species on the way to extinction. Grendel and his Mom may be the last ones left.

Which may mean that there's never going to be a Misses Grendel. There's never going to be little Grendelkids. All Grendel has to look forward to is hanging out with Mom, and growing old alone."


I respect your right to put forward a theory. But I have as much of a right to put forward my own theory.
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