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Alterniverse; A world where dinosaurs, mammals, notosuchids, pterosaurs are dominant
Topic Started: Aug 5 2010, 05:55 AM (4,696 Views)
Cephylus
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Okay here is a project I've been working on for some time. It has a very common theme, what if the asteroid never crashed at the end of Cretaceous and if dinosaurs had survived as the dominant clade on Earth. I already have a website on wikidot but I haven't yet discussed it much on this forum. I've been working on it alone except for some help from by paleontology crazed friends but now I'm posting it here for some suggestions and corrections since I want to make this project as plausible as possible and my ideas are limited.

So here are the general settings for this project:
- First, most importantly, the asteroid missed and so dinosaurs went on as the dominant clade. Although many dinosaurs were killed off during many extinction events in the Cenezoic, they still are the dominant land vertebrates in the present.
- As you can guess, mammals don't fare well as they do in HE but they are still one of the secondary major clades and a successful group. They fare far better than their Mesozoic ancestors with dinosaurs. However, mammals are still the prey and dinosaurs are still the predators..... with some exceptions
- Pterosaurs are one of the other successful clades. They fill various flyer niches occupied by birds in HE. There are some flightless animals that fill large omnivore/carnivore niches.
- Mosasaurs aren't so lucky in this New World. They survive and thrive in some places, but they are not the dominant sea vertebrates and their diversity reduced as they are more and more pushed off the stage by marine mammals and penguin-like sea dinos.
- Champsosaurs are still around and some managed to quite successfuly establish themselves in semi aquatic/ marine niches.
- Notosuchids are another successful clade and they range from small insectivores to gigantic dinosaur guzzling sabre toothed apex predators. All of them are heterodont and they distinctly resemble mammals.

So what do you think of this world? I'll be posting more specific stuff when this draws some attention..... Also I need help with those Latin names for classfication..... ;)
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dialforthedevil
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What about long necked hadrosaurs???
Or quadrapedal therizinosaurs which become sauropod look alikes
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Cephylus
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You know, I had the same idea for tall browsers in this project. I have the idea for quadrupedel and long-necked therizinosaurs
I'll have many bipedal therizinosaurs but I'm also thinking of quadruped ones as well, maybe even ones with hooves? they'd be fit for browsing
And sauropod-like hardrosaurs are nice. probably be tall browsers in the southern hemisphere

As for the mammalian carnivores, I'm thinking of metatherians, hyaenodonts and mesonychians and a few small carnivorans resembling small cats
(note that the carnivora is not true carnivora, the mesonychians not true mesonychians, the hyaenodonts not true hyaenodonts. They are all only similar animals with the same ancestors.) I'm going to have them as small and middle sized predators and scavengers, and some even pack predators taking down pretty large herbivorous dinosaurs.
Also for marine mammals, they aren't so big as they are in our world. the size limit, I think it should be 7 metres and 2 tonnes they are all fish-eating predators, like dolphins or some pinnipeds maybe even some aquatic herbivores?
I think cimolestans are good, but I think they will mostly fill arboreal niches. I'm thinking more of creodonts or even mesonychian-like ungulates in HE.
Also I have some ideas for lagomorphs and cimolestans.

I will have niche maps shortly
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Ook
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so then that marine mammals resemble HE toothed whales
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Cephylus
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Bexi
Aug 13 2010, 09:04 AM
so then that marine mammals resemble HE toothed whales
You could say that, but the Alterniverse ones are a bit more primitive
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Pando
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cephlaken
Aug 13 2010, 06:52 AM
I'll have many bipedal therizinosaurs but I'm also thinking of quadruped ones as well, maybe even ones with hooves? they'd be fit for browsing


As for the mammalian carnivores, I'm thinking of metatherians, hyaenodonts and mesonychians and a few small carnivorans resembling small cats


Also for marine mammals, they aren't so big as they are in our world. the size limit, I think it should be 7 metres and 2 tonnes they are all fish-eating predators, like dolphins or some pinnipeds maybe even some aquatic herbivores?
I already asked about quadrupedal theropods before, and it was agreed that while therizinosaurs were the most likely late theropods, you'd need a Triassic theropod for a quadrupedal theropod.
Hooves are nails covered in keratin. It happened a lot to mammals but never to non-mammals. Hoofed dino's are a big no-no. Therizinosaurs are for forests, not grasslands. Hadrosaurs, ankylosaurs, or stegosaurs will be best for grasslands, not therizinosaurs or pachycephalosaurs.


3 middle sized predator groups? Earth currently has one group for all medium and big predator niche, and the hyaenodonts and mesonychids did not co-exist, the hyaenodonts were outcompeting the mesonychids.


You have to remember the sea will most likely resemble near-exactly today's seas, which include giant filter feeding forms. The seas will be similar today because it will still be a lot colder during the Oligocene Cooling.


I also, are you going to have any pachycephalosaurs? They're my favorite dino so you better include them.
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Rick Raptor
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I think advanced Ceratopsids and Hadrosaurids had what one may call "hooves" on their first three fingers.


And I agree with Pandorasaurus that there would probably be gaint filter-feeding animals aswell (however, it was recently find out that pliosaurs were warm-blooded, so even the Oligocene cooling wouldn´t necessarily lead to their extinction).

I also ask about Pachycephalosaurs, too. Most Alternate Universes I´ve seen so far seem to drop them off early, and my question is "Why?"
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dialforthedevil
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How about the main browsers are not hadrosaurs for they are cliche but pachycephlasaurs?
Hadrosaurs could fill pinniped niches and maybe evolve into filter feeders.
While the Pachys become the Alterniverse equivalent of Bovines, heavily armed large grazers they could even be quadrapedal....
Please come visit A Scientfic Fantasy http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/3433014/1/

ALSO!!! JOIN THE NEW RPG SITE!!! FOR ALL MEMBERS!!! IM GOING TO RUN MA GLOBAL SIMULATORS THERE!!! http://s4.zetaboards.com/jasonguppy/index/

Join the Campaign to save minotaurs from extinction!!! (include this in your signature to show your support!)
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Ook
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or something completely new and unique,which evolve from smaller ornithischians
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Cephylus
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Pandorasaurus
Aug 13 2010, 11:46 AM
cephlaken
Aug 13 2010, 06:52 AM
I'll have many bipedal therizinosaurs but I'm also thinking of quadruped ones as well, maybe even ones with hooves? they'd be fit for browsing


As for the mammalian carnivores, I'm thinking of metatherians, hyaenodonts and mesonychians and a few small carnivorans resembling small cats


Also for marine mammals, they aren't so big as they are in our world. the size limit, I think it should be 7 metres and 2 tonnes they are all fish-eating predators, like dolphins or some pinnipeds maybe even some aquatic herbivores?
I already asked about quadrupedal theropods before, and it was agreed that while therizinosaurs were the most likely late theropods, you'd need a Triassic theropod for a quadrupedal theropod.
Hooves are nails covered in keratin. It happened a lot to mammals but never to non-mammals. Hoofed dino's are a big no-no. Therizinosaurs are for forests, not grasslands. Hadrosaurs, ankylosaurs, or stegosaurs will be best for grasslands, not therizinosaurs or pachycephalosaurs.


3 middle sized predator groups? Earth currently has one group for all medium and big predator niche, and the hyaenodonts and mesonychids did not co-exist, the hyaenodonts were outcompeting the mesonychids.


You have to remember the sea will most likely resemble near-exactly today's seas, which include giant filter feeding forms. The seas will be similar today because it will still be a lot colder during the Oligocene Cooling.


I also, are you going to have any pachycephalosaurs? They're my favorite dino so you better include them.
Oh, then quadruped therizinosaurs are not plausible. Too bad.
But I can have bipedal therizinos as sauropod look-alikes I'm also thinking of knuckle-walking therizinosaurs then, like giant sloths.
Also I'll keep the therizinosaurs to the forest environments I'll have mostly hardrosaurs lose on the plains

And about hooves, I'll keep hooved hardrosaurs and ceratopsains

for mammalian carnivores, I just mean that I'll choose between the three groups, I've pretty much narrowed them down now I'll probably have metatherians. For non-herbivore hooved animals I'll have those as omnivores

Also I'm re-considering pliosaurs and mosasaurs. I'm keeping those in the seas, although pliosaurs will be a relic group. For filter-feeders, I'm thinking of giant marine reptiles or giant filter-feeding sharks.


And Yeah I'm going to have pachycephalosaurs :lol: , although I truly dunno why no project has them. Spec doesn't have them, as far as I know. They have titanosaurs that big that survived into the present, and they don't have pachycephalosaurs. In my opinion, pachycephalosaurs have a pretty high chance of survival, especially smaller ones. I'm thinking of them as mostly middle-sized forest omnivore or herbivore, and I think I could do pretty weird things with those

And thanks for the advices :lol: I'm trying to keep plausibility, you see

And I think pachycephalosaurs have a pretty hard chance of evolving into a grazer, I'm thinking of a browser instead. :D
Okay some artwork... description later
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Edited by Cephylus, Aug 14 2010, 09:48 AM.
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Pando
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The smaller flat-headed pachycephalosaurs were actually probably young pachy's, so they're diversity is not that diverse as once thought. But they were getting more diverse at the end Cretaceous, and they have the chance to rule the forests of North America and Asia.
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Cephylus
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I haven't been posting in this for a while, so here is something for the project:

River Beast
Size: 3~4 metres, 178~341 killograms (females slightly larger than males)
Diet: piscivorous; mainly feeds on small to large fish and some aquatic invertebrates; some individuals have been known to scavenge on dead carcasses
Habitat: riparian, lacustrine environments
Distribution: mostly Southern Europe, along the Mediterranean coast, but some have been found as far up North as the Netherlands
This large, dappled semi-aquatic gharial like champsosaur is a common sight in large freshwater bodies of the Mediterranean islands and the coastal areas. The River Beast, although they are quite large, are quite harmless, as their flimsy, narrow jaws make it impossible for them to attack large prey. Instead, River Beasts are specialist fish hunters, similar to the HE gharials. Young individuals generally feed on small invertebrates and amphibians. Adults almost feed soley on large fish, although they may prey on an occasional aquatic invertebrate or feed on carcasses. Their snouts are ideally suited for piscivory; the long, narrow snout offer very little resistance to water in sudden snapping motions; the jaws lined with many interlocking sets of razor-sharp teeth makes it quite easy for this predator to hold on tenacioulsy to the slippery, struggling fish.
River Beasts are solitary animlas. Although a large number of individuals are found in a single body of freshwater, they are not a social group and rarely interact with each other except for occasional fight over territory, food and mating. They breed once every three years. The offspring takes about 4 years to mature.

Striped Flesh Scrapers
Size: 2.5~3 metres, 200~250 killograms, (females quite larger than males)
Diet: carnivorous, with a very flexible range of diet; the animal is a scavenger and usually feeds on carcass, but will eat anything moving that is smaller than themselves and in packs take down large hardrosaurs as well.
Habitat: semi deserts, savannahs, dry forests, rainforests, temperate forests, flooded grasslands
Distribution: almost everywhere in Africa, Southern Europe, Middle East, Southern Asia
These queer, carnivorous notosuchids are widespread throughout Asia, Africa and Europe. The Flesh Scrapers, middle sized and very aggressive carnivorous notosuchids occupy a niche similar to that of HE hyenas. Flesh Scrapers are quite adaptable animals, generally flexible to changing environments, an advantage which enabled these notosuchids to spread across many continents throughout different environments. These animals are covered with formidable armor, which protects them from the horns of a cornered Hardrolope or the furious jaws of an another Flesh Scraper. Flesh Scrapers have long, lean and powerful legs perfect for long-distance running; this characteristic ables these animals to gallop across long distances when they smell prey. Flesh Scrapers have immensely powerful jaws covered with musculature for crushing and scraping bones. The effect is enhanced by the sets of powerful carnassial flesh for shearing flesh and broad, conical teeth for crushing bones. Flesh Scrapers also have a very powerful digestive system, with highly acidic fluids.
Flesh Scrapers are social animals, and are pack hunters. They are highly intelligent animals, using strategic hunting methods. Flesh Scraper packs are complex in structure, has high competition and cooperation similar to that of baboons in HE. The pack consists of usually around 22 individuals, with an alpha female individual as the leader. Flesh Scrapers have a spotted hyena-esque sexual dimorphism, with the females being larger and more aggressive compared to males. The females also have distinct, bony protursions at the end of their snouts, a sign which helps the leader female claim dominance over the entire pack. [/b]
Edited by Cephylus, Aug 22 2010, 08:44 AM.
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Cephylus
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Greek River Leviathan
Size: 7~9 metres, 1000+ killograms (males slightly larger than females)
Diet: carnivorous; an ambush predator, has an appealing for large prey, feeds on large terrestrial mammals/dinosaurs that comes too close and some aquatic mammals/reptiles/birds and occasionally large fish and sometimes scavenges on carcass
Habitat: large freshwater bodies, such as lakes and large rivers
Distribution: mainly in the Balkan Peninsula, found in southern Italy and easturn Turkey as well, found on some Mediterranean island such as Cyprus and Crete
The Greek River Leviathan is among the largest predators residing in the Balkan Peninsula. They are the hunter of large mammals and dinosaurs such as Hardrozelles or Hardrolopes. The Leviathan overall fills a niche similar to that of most large crocodiles; they are ambush predators. This humongous choristodere has thicker and more powerful jaws than most of its relatives, jaws that bites down with crocodilian fury. In appearance, this predator is overall similar to large crocodiles, colored in a dull brownish-grey tonality, except that this animal lacks the crocodilian armor. Greek River Leviathans do not face much competition since large crocodiles are not present in the Balkan Peninsula; the peninsula belongs to the choristoderes, who are much tolerant of lower temperatures compared to the crocodilians. Although these choristoderes mostly spend their time in freshwater, they are also saltwater tolerant and often venture out into the Mediterranean sea, the reason these animals are found in isolated islands such as Cyprus.
Greek River Leviathans mate seasonally in early winter in a brief courtship between a male and a female individual, which allows the females to lay their eggs in early spring. The female, after mating, comes ashore to lay her eggs. Then the female makes a mound and burrows the eggs. During the winter, the female guards the eggs carefully, protecting them from hungry mammalian and dinosaurian carnivores searching for something to eat. The female rarely eats and never lets down her guard until the eggs hatch in early spring.

American Razorteeth
Size: wingspan 1 metre, 100 grams
Diet: carnivorous, mostly feeds on small mammals/reptiles/birds and insects but in a large flock will devour middle-sized or large dinosaurs and mammals, also often scavenges on large animal remains in large flocks
Habitat: temperate coniferous forests
Distribution: western North America, southwestern South America
Alterniverse is home to many strange and deadly animals, but almost none is more bizarre and lethal than the American Razorteeths. These small, carnivorous anurognathids are swift, silent predators. These anurognathids, like all nocturnal predatorial anurognathids, have furry-edged patagia for silent flight and short, broad wings for high maneuverablity in the thickly wooded coniferous forests they live in. Overall these predators are perfectly adapted to hunting small animals, and they do mostly hunt small mammals, reptiles, birds and insects in solitary hunting. However, these anurognathids often gather in large flocks, and that is when these pterosaurs turn into blood-thirsty predators of large prey. These anurognathids have an acute sense of smell, able to detect the scent of blood from far, far away... and when they sense blood these animals behave much like furry winged piranhas. They swarm over some weak, sick, old or wounded animal the scent of blood is coming from, suddenley turning aggressive and starts ripping the flesh off the prey. The Razorteeths have huge heads in proportion to the body, like many anurognathids and razor-sharp triangular teeth like piranhas, perfect for biting small chunks of flesh off a large animal. A flock of Razorteeths can clean off a large oviraptorosaur to the bones in three days. When they have eaten their fill, these pterosaurs scatter for some time, acting like normal anurognathids untill they gather again when they are hungry. These anurognathids look like small, furry demon-like winged toads. Razorteeths are covered with soft, downy fur of silvery grey and black horizontal stripes running down their backs.
Razorteeths mate in a brief courtship during early spring. The females are considerably large than females. In mating season, females emit an entoxicating smell which draws males. Razorteeths mate in midair for a very short period of time. After the brief ritual, the two individuals break up instantly, and the female is left alone to give birth to and raise the offsprings on her own. The female gives birth to live young instead of eggs. After the juveniles mature enough to fly and hunt their own, the mother forces her offsprings to leave her by suddenley acting extremely aggressive.
Edited by Cephylus, Sep 6 2010, 07:11 AM.
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The Dodo
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Wasn't there an anurognathid like that in Primeval?
I like the diversification in choristoderes, wouldn't they run into competition with Eusuchians though.
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Cephylus
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Oh the choristoderes win in the competition between eusuchian gharials. And choristoderes diversify mostly in places where semi aquatic crocs are not found, since choristoderes are more lower temperature-tolerant and can occur at higher latitudes. The one I did all live in Europe, and there are no semi-aquatic crocs there.
And yeah, the anurognathid was inspired by the primeval one, although mine looks like a furry toad with whiskers and wings. Much larger head and teeth. :lol:
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The Dodo
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Ok, do eusuchians produce any different forms in this world?
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