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Primate domestication
Topic Started: Jun 17 2010, 11:02 PM (1,017 Views)
Pando
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I've been watching Avatar: The Last Airbender recently, and it seems to have a lot of domesticated primates. So the question is, what if primates have been domesticated as pack animals or pets? What new forms could evolve?
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Pandorica
Jun 18 2010, 12:05 PM
What if there were some dumb ones, about half as smart as a lemur?
Elaborate on these "dumb" monkeys.
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The Dodo
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Jun 18 2010, 12:01 PM
Indeed. Having a monkey or ape as a pet is incredibly stupid, and since apes and monkeys are extremely intelligent (Comparatively speaking.), it's just plain cruel. As far as I know, you can't breed out strategic thinking or self-concept.
It does seem cruel to keep them as a pet. But, wouldn't also seem cruel then to keep an African Grey parrot seeing as they have proven to be very intelligent.
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MitchBeard
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Its easier to identify it as cruel with monkeys though because they are more like us.
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this makes me remember certain south park's episode, lol.
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Cynovolans
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Most primates don't fit the 6 rules for domestication. Many don't have flexible diets, many don't recognize humans as their superior, many don't have fast growth rates, many are aggressive towards humans, many need certain requirements before they will breed in captivity, and many will panic in situations involving meeting strangers.

I wish I could give the public a true picture of the queen as she appeared at her best, but this would be impossible, even had she permitted a photograph to be taken, for her charming play of expression while in conversation, the character and intellect which were then revealed, were only half seen when the face was in repose. -Lilias Underwood when speaking of Empress Myeongseong

"I was born in the dark. I went out into the light, and your Majesty, it is my displeasure to inform you that I have returned to the dark. I envision a Seoul of towering buildings filled with Western establishments that will place herself back above the Japanese barbarians. Great things lie ahead for the Kingdom, great things. We must take action, your Majesty, without hesitation, to further modernize this still ancient kingdom."-Min Young-ik to Empress Myeongseong
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Ànraich
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Ammonite
Jun 18 2010, 12:16 AM
I don't really think so. Primates are nowhere near as dumb as the large ungulates we have domesticated are, and their minds don't have the same receptiveness that a dog has because they are not as heirarchical as dogs are. I.e. There is not going to be any master-worker relationship going on.

There have in the past been instances where people would train monkeys to do certain things for them, but the monkey would only do this if they knew they were going to get something out of it. You can't really give orders to a monkey. Or an ape, for that matter. All those cases where people have tried to keep chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans worked out horribly because the animals rebelled against their "owner" so don't get me started on how stupid I think it is to keep an ape as a pet. Morally, I feel that keeping an ape as a pet is akin to slavery so I very much disagree with it. All primates seem to have a heightened sense of self and I think both apes and monkeys are too smart to have that bred out of them.

For monkeys, I think the most we will be able to get from them is the same kind of relationship we have with a cat. It is also likely the monkey will conciously learn how to train us for its purposes.
I agree with this. Primates are more intelligent than regular domesticated animals, which is exactly why they're not domesticated. You can't make it rely on you, it can learn to live without you. Sure, cattle can survive on their own without ranchers to take care of them, but they lack the perceptiveness to realize this. A primate would only remain domesticated as long as it wanted to, realizing full well that you're just exploiting it for labor. Plus, primates are more social than something like cattle; if you started doing something with one of them, the others might perceive you as a threat and attack or run away.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Kain
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Well, as far as I know, a primate would be more like a roommate than a pet... They are so smart they would often surprise you.

If humans were to breed them as slaves, though, like we did with dogs, with selective breeding, I think it would be possible to breed an obeying race of primates. But then, I think there would be a "Planet of the Apes" possibility, where we breeded them so intelligent to do our work better, that they revolted to claim their rights. There are already some primates able to speak to humans through sign language, I think.

The above, though, would be a completely inhuman thing to do to a primate. It's not like we did not already do it to dogs, though...
Edited by Kain, Jun 22 2010, 07:52 PM.
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lamna
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I remember reading Arthur C. Clarke's novel 3001: The Final Odyssey where heavily modified gorillas are used for heavy manual labour. Not for gardening though, apparently they lack the concentration and reconstituted dromeosaurs are used.

I don't think it's particularity cruel to keep monkeys as pet because they are clever, but they do make horrible pets for various reasons I learnt at college. Some smaller new world monkeys make ok pets, but they generally need much more care than most people have the resources to give them.
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Kain
 
If humans were to breed them as slaves, though, like we did with dogs, with selective breeding, I think it would be possible to breed an obeying race of primates.

That is if we were able to breed them that way. Most likely they simply wouldn't let us. Morals aside, how are you going to get a 150 pound chimp or a 200 pound gorilla to breed willingly for you, then not breed with some other partner that has better genes? And not just these two apes. All monkeys and apes regularly put their self interests ahead of our own. This is what I meant when I said a higher sense of self. They would know they were being kept against their will, they would know they are entitled to more or better treatment, and unless you had handcuffs or some other kind of equipment (like that would stop a gorilla - I mean, seriously :O.o: ) to help you physically force them to do something against their will, they would know they could get away with it.At the very least you would have a very depressed or psychotic animal that would just sit there all day and look at you as if it were going to kill you.

Kain
 
The above, though, would be a completely inhuman thing to do to a primate. It's not like we did not already do it to dogs, though...

Dogs are not like primates.

For the first thing, their sense of self is way lower than that of a primate. So is their sense of dignity. They would follow you anywhere blindly, no matter how degradingly you treated them, because they wouldn't know any better.

Second, dogs are incredibly social animals that instinctively cooperate as a coherent unit, so there is already a niche carved out for you in their social system as soon as you bring them home for the first time. You hardly even have to do anything.

Third, the relationship between humans and dogs began as a mutual thing. We did not just go out, catch wild dogs and then forcefully breed them to produce dumber offspring. They came to us, and the decrease in cranial size - there is no proof that wolves or any other wild canid are actually more intelligent than domestic dogs - was a side effect of their co-habitation with us. Nothing was really forced on them, we only coerced or encouraged them to breed with some partners and not others.

Primates are more like cats. They pretty much do what they want unless they know they are going to be rewarded for it. They even have a sense of equality. If you were to instruct two monkeys or two apes to do something and afterward gave one monkey a treat while only giving praise to the other monkey, after a while that second monkey would stop doing things for you until it got a treat too. That's right, they are that smart.

If you are still set on the idea of "domesticating" apes, here is a better analogy for you: could you honestly, in the same context, do the same thing to a human? For that matter, would you treat a human the same way you would treat a dog?

I think you know the answer to that.
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Kain
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I think people are easy to brainwash. We once had slaves, after all. But you are right to say that the primates would not cooperate, even though I had in mind smaller ones, not gorillas... But whith our present genetic technology, selective breeding would not be the same. An obeying race of primated, I think, it would not be very hard to raise in a tube.
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lamna
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Indeed, one could also control these modified apes with electrodes in the pleasure centre so it would do whatever you told it, and it would love it.

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Kain
 
I think people are easy to brainwash. We once had slaves, after all.

But do we have slaves now?

Kain
 
But you are right to say that the primates would not cooperate, even though I had in mind smaller ones, not gorillas...

It is sort of the same deal with smaller primates too. You are trading strength and power with speed and agility. If you can somehow make a smaller monkey like a langur do whatever you want it to do for you, then it may very well work out. But first you gotta catch 'em. Then you have to deal with their somewhat more dominant willpower - more than a dog's, anyway - and all of that supercharged adrenaline and hyperactivity that monkeys are known for.

BTW, when you mean "smaller ones," are you including baboons? Most speciesare about the size of a langur. Maybe a little bit bigger, but definately more bulky. Thing is, I have heard and read about people getting bitten by those things and it is not pleasant. I read about a guy who got bitten by a male baboob and he still had the scars to show for it many years later.

Kain
 
But whith our present genetic technology, selective breeding would not be the same. An obeying race of primated, I think, it would not be very hard to raise in a tube.

You're talking about genetic engineering now, not selective breeding. As of right now that is still quite expensive, time-consuming and professionally demanding. What exactly do you think we would be using these monkeys for that would be important enough for genetic engineering?

lamna
 
Indeed, one could also control these modified apes with electrodes in the pleasure centre so it would do whatever you told it, and it would love it.

You mean remote electrode conditioning? Can this even be done yet? And if it is external, what is going to prevent the ape from removing these electrodes? While I think this idea might have a chance of working, methinks you also underestimate the extent of critical thinking in apes. If someone were to do this same thing to you, do you think it would work? Humans serve as a good analogy when it comes to this sort of thing.
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Ànraich
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Ammonite
Jun 23 2010, 01:06 AM
Kain
 
If humans were to breed them as slaves, though, like we did with dogs, with selective breeding, I think it would be possible to breed an obeying race of primates.

That is if we were able to breed them that way. Most likely they simply wouldn't let us. Morals aside, how are you going to get a 150 pound chimp or a 200 pound gorilla to breed willingly for you, then not breed with some other partner that has better genes? And not just these two apes. All monkeys and apes regularly put their self interests ahead of our own. This is what I meant when I said a higher sense of self. They would know they were being kept against their will, they would know they are entitled to more or better treatment, and unless you had handcuffs or some other kind of equipment (like that would stop a gorilla - I mean, seriously :O.o: ) to help you physically force them to do something against their will, they would know they could get away with it.At the very least you would have a very depressed or psychotic animal that would just sit there all day and look at you as if it were going to kill you.

Kain
 
The above, though, would be a completely inhuman thing to do to a primate. It's not like we did not already do it to dogs, though...

Dogs are not like primates.

For the first thing, their sense of self is way lower than that of a primate. So is their sense of dignity. They would follow you anywhere blindly, no matter how degradingly you treated them, because they wouldn't know any better.

Second, dogs are incredibly social animals that instinctively cooperate as a coherent unit, so there is already a niche carved out for you in their social system as soon as you bring them home for the first time. You hardly even have to do anything.

Third, the relationship between humans and dogs began as a mutual thing. We did not just go out, catch wild dogs and then forcefully breed them to produce dumber offspring. They came to us, and the decrease in cranial size - there is no proof that wolves or any other wild canid are actually more intelligent than domestic dogs - was a side effect of their co-habitation with us. Nothing was really forced on them, we only coerced or encouraged them to breed with some partners and not others.

Primates are more like cats. They pretty much do what they want unless they know they are going to be rewarded for it. They even have a sense of equality. If you were to instruct two monkeys or two apes to do something and afterward gave one monkey a treat while only giving praise to the other monkey, after a while that second monkey would stop doing things for you until it got a treat too. That's right, they are that smart.

If you are still set on the idea of "domesticating" apes, here is a better analogy for you: could you honestly, in the same context, do the same thing to a human? For that matter, would you treat a human the same way you would treat a dog?

I think you know the answer to that.
Of course we would treat humans that way. We can and have in the past, and many still do today. In a sense, we already tried domesticating primates; that's what humans are. The only thing that's changed is society's acceptance of it. Primates are as intelligent as you've stated, and bobnobos are even capable of comprhending human language and communicating with sign language or computers (to whoever said it first).
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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