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Flying geckos
Topic Started: Jun 8 2010, 12:49 PM (2,098 Views)
Carlos
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I've pretty much overlooked modern gliding geckos all this time, when they are probably the reptiles with the biggest chances of going aerial.

I invision future flying geckos as having bat like wings, derived as the membranes along the arms and legs fused to the flaps along the torso. The digits of tthe forelimbs, all with mebranes within them already, and with the thumb already clawless, would be all wing fingers; they could still retain the pads that allow them to climb, thus having the fingers still having the function of gluing the animal to a vertical surface in other to rest, or they could just loose them all together and instead rely just on their feet to stay attached, thus somewhat looking like bats when perching, using their hindlimbs to glue themselves to rocks or trees upside down. I doubt they'd go bipedal though, considering their anatomy.
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Ammonite
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Just an inquiry, not a critique: Don't the bristles on a gecko's toes resemble the ciliated edges of a human finger rather than strands of fur?
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Toad of Spades
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Yes they do. Here's what they look like under the microscope.

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If they derive a body covering from these, it could look quite different from fur or hair.

It would also be possible for them to develop the body covering and other essential requirements for powered flight first (ie. endothermy, high metabolism, advanced heart), before flight itself. If they evolve this way, it could be possible to develop something similar to a feather, using the bristle edges to hook together.
Edited by Toad of Spades, Jun 9 2010, 09:58 PM.
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Ammonite
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Cool! Thanks for that :D Yeah, I can see them becoming an effective dermal covering now. If these geckos were able to evolve such a covering of cilia, would other parts be able to stick to flat surfaces as well? :O.o:
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Holben
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They shouldn't, but could.

Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

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MitchBeard
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It would make an interesting way of catching prey.
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Toad of Spades
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Lol, what if they get stuck on their back against a smooth surface?
Edited by Toad of Spades, Jun 10 2010, 11:19 PM.
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Ammonite
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That could actually be pretty dangerous to the gecko in a number of ways. Maybe they could release a sort of dermal lubrication to fix this?
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Margaret Pye
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Well, they have no difficulty detaching their toes from surfaces when they want to.

The question is whether they'd want to be sticky all over.

Hmm... living flypaper.
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Ammonite
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Margaret Pye
Jun 11 2010, 12:38 AM
Well, they have no difficulty detaching their toes from surfaces when they want to.
They are able to detach their feet by pushing down with one foot while pulling away with another foot. If their back got stuck to something, they wouldn't be able to free themselves unless they could either manipulate the cilia or affect them in some way like releasing the dermal lubricant I mentioned. So it isn't a question of whether they would want to or not. Not unless they could conciously affect the cilia, which is something they are currently unable to do.
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Margaret Pye
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No, they can consciously affect the cilia.
My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.
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Carlos
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Presumably the cilia aside from that on the toes would evolve in a way of avoiding attaching to things; the cilia in the feet on modern geckos appearently already avoids sticking to each other and to dust.

Otherwise, however, some species could have attaching cilia in the feet or wing membranes, in order to help catch prey
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Ammonite
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Here is a section of Wikipedia's article on geckos that describes the adhesive qualities of a gecko's feet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko#Gecko_toes:_setae_and_van_der_Waals_forces
 
Wikipedia]The toes of the gecko have a special adaptation that allows them to adhere to most surfaces
without the use of liquids or surface tension. Recent studies of the spatula tipped setae on
gecko footpads demonstrate that the attractive forces that hold geckos to surfaces are van
der Waals interactions
between the finely divided setae and the surfaces themselves. Every
square millimeter of a gecko's footpad contains about 14,000 hair-like setae. Each seta has
a diameter of 5 micrometers. Human hair varies from 18 to 180 micrometers, so a human
hair could hold between 3 and 36 setae. Each seta is in turn tipped with between 100 and
1,000 spatulae.[4] Each spatula is 0.2 micrometer long[4] (one five-millionth of a meter), or
just below the wavelength of visible light.[5]

These van der Waals interactions involve no fluids; in theory, a boot made of synthetic setae
would adhere as easily to the surface of the International Space Station as it would to a
living room wall, although adhesion varies with humidity and is dramatically reduced under
water, suggesting a contribution from capillarity.[6] The setae on the feet of geckos are also
self cleaning and will usually remove any clogging dirt within a few steps
.[4][7] Teflon, which
has very low van der Waals forces,[8] is the only known surface to which a gecko cannot
stick.[9] Geckos' toes seem to be "double jointed", but this is a misnomer. Their toes
actually bend in the opposite direction from our fingers and toes. This allows them to
overcome the van der Waals force by peeling their toes off surfaces from the tips inward. In
essence, this peeling action alters the angle of incidence between millions of individual
setae and the surface, reducing the Van der Waals force
. Geckos' toes operate well below
their full attractive capabilities for most of the time. This is because there is a great margin
for error depending upon the roughness of the surface, and therefore the number of setae in
contact with that surface. If a typical mature 70 g (2.5 oz) gecko had every one of its setae in contact with a surface, it would be capable of
holding aloft a weight of 133 kg (290 lb):[10] each spatula can exert an adhesive force of 10 nanonewtons (0.0010 mgf).[6] Each seta can
resist 10 milligrams-force (100 µN), which is equivalent to 10 atmospheres of pull.[4]. This means a gecko can support about eight times its
weight hanging from just one toe on smooth glass. [4]

It seems that a gecko's foot will initially stick to a surface on contact and that the gecko has to peel the toe off the surface in order to release it. Dirt does get stuck to their toes on contact but the setae will release the dirt afterward as a self-cleaning mechanism. aside from the fact that - given the forementioned information - a gecko's toe might initially get stuck on some other part of its body until released, it is unlikely that this would happen due to their physiology. Therefore, if a future species of gecko were to develop setae all over its body as a form of heat insulation and energy conservation, something would need to be done with the setae to prevent their adhesive properties or else the gecko does stand a good chance of unintentionally getting some other part of its body stuck to a nearby object or flat surface. It may be possible for the gecko to develop some sort of dermal lubricant or film that could cover the setae and make them non-adhesive in places other than its toes, though. It is just a suggestion, but IMHO one worth considering.

EDIT: Fixed the quote's title URL. For some reason this forum software won't allow me to use URL links as quotes.
Edited by Ammonite, Jun 12 2010, 07:20 PM.
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Margaret Pye
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Ok, I stand corrected. Sorry about the confusion.
My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.
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Toad of Spades
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Because of their brille, they could fly at high speeds without having to squint to keep wind from drying their eyes. Also they don't have to blink or worry about stuff getting in their eyes when chasing after prey in heavily forested areas and places with obstacles. This could make them very effective aerial predators when it comes to pursuing prey.

Ways to improve on this is for them to evolve the brille thicker yet keeping them transparent. With transparent thick "goggles" over each eye, they could effectively wipe out the vision problems facing flying vertebrates. When they shed though, they should shed one at a time to prevent temporary blindness.

As for shedding, would they still retain the lepidosaurian method of shedding while having a complex body covering?
Edited by Toad of Spades, Jun 12 2010, 11:48 PM.
Sorry Link, I don't give credit. Come back when you're a little...MMMMMM...Richer.

Bread is an animal and humans are %90 aluminum.
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Ammonite
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Margaret Pye
 
Ok, I stand corrected. Sorry about the confusion.

No problem ^_^

Toad of Spades
 
As for shedding, would they still retain the lepidosaurian method of shedding while having a complex body covering?

Possibly. The scales might fall off seperately instead of all at the same time like an endocast, with the setae still attached to them. The new coat of scales might show up underneath without setae at first, and new setae might grow in later.
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