Wolf in sheeps' shoes

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Wolf in sheeps' shoes; Might canids evolve hooves?
Topic Started: May 23 2010, 05:11 AM (1,478 Views)
Margaret Pye	May 23 2010, 05:11 AM Post #1
Adult Posts: 596 Group: Members Member #267 Joined: Feb 3, 2010 Gender: Female Nationality: Australian	Apart from Urocyon - which is practically a surviving transitional form - dog legs are highly specialised for long-distance running. They're reduced enough to be useless for anything else besides digging and maybe a bit of swimming. No grasping ability. No use as weapons - dogs rely entirely on their teeth to kill large prey. No sideways flexibility. They might as well be hooves. And the same applies to the convergently similar feliform Crocuta. So who thinks it'd be logical for futuristic canids to go a bit further with their cursorial adaptations, and actually develop hooves? Perhaps only the specialised megapredatory forms, because the rat-hunting species pounce on prey and pin it with the forepaws, and hooves probably wouldn't work for that. But the hooves would work just as well for digging. If they were reasonably broad and sharp-edged, they'd be just as good for agility and traction. And they might be faster. Anyone want to design a dhole descendant with hooves? Or if you think it's too optimistic to have dholes escape the human-caused mass extinction (certainly, lycaons seem to be on their way out), then evolve a future jackal or fox into a dhole-like form and then give that hooves - jackals will definitely outlast humans, unless nuclear weapons are involved.
	My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.

Replies:
Kingpin	May 29 2010, 03:01 PM Post #16
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,600 Group: Members Member #248 Joined: Nov 7, 2009 Nationality: United States Favorite Quote: Which way is the enemy's gate?	Yes, by sneaking up and jumping from the bushes. Without that element of suprise, wolves would have to find another way to get to the prey. Running beside them and trying to bit whatever part of it they can find works fine, but again, they'd need to stop their prey quickly or risk getting tired. Most predators use short bursts of energy to subdue prey, right?
	Quote: I love New York. You can pop out of the Underworld in Central Park, hail a taxi, head down Fifth Avenue with a giant hellhound loping along behind you, and nobody even looks at you funny. -Last Olympian, Rick Riordan. Quote: HELICOPTER. It is a HELICOPTER. You call that thing a 'whirly-bird' one more time, I'll beat you SO bad, your sister's gonna wish she never gave birth to you. -Nick


Margaret Pye	May 30 2010, 01:15 AM Post #17
Adult Posts: 596 Group: Members Member #267 Joined: Feb 3, 2010 Gender: Female Nationality: Australian	Um, no. You've completely misunderstood how megapredatory canids (and spotted hyaenas) work. Most predators - cats, for example - do rely on short bursts of energy to catch their prey, and tire quickly. Cursorial species like dholes (dholes make a better example than wolves because they're more specialised) have great endurance and tire very slowly, and often chase prey over several kilometres before either catching it or giving up. That's why wolves mainly prey on the young, old, and weak. If they chase something that's too healthy they're liable to get tired and give up (or realise it's too healthy and not chase it in the first place.) Whereas ambush hunters, such as leopards, will often take perfectly healthy prey - they rely on grabbing it before it's had time to get up to full speed.
	My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.


lamna	May 30 2010, 04:37 AM Post #18
Posts: 21,140 Group: Global Mods Member #26 Joined: Jul 1, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: British	Indeed, while smaller canids use surprise and pounce, most of the larger ones hunt by wearing down their prey. They don't need stealth at all, indeed they need to be noticed to hunt. Also, why do you chaps think hooves are nosily? I've seen deer only a few metres away and they were incredibly quite. I think this idea has some merit, perhaps the descendent of coyotes evolve hooves to wear down pronghorn.
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Kingpin	May 30 2010, 09:17 AM Post #19
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,600 Group: Members Member #248 Joined: Nov 7, 2009 Nationality: United States Favorite Quote: Which way is the enemy's gate?	Quote: That's why wolves mainly prey on the young, old, and weak. Along with like 70% of all carnivores. And my apologies. I was thinking more along the lines of a big cat. Quote: Also, why do you chaps think hooves are nosily? I've seen deer only a few metres away and they were incredibly quite. Really? The deer around my house can't keep quite to save their lives. They can sort of sneak past when I'm not paying attention, but otherwise it's not too hard to hear them going through the brush.
	Quote: I love New York. You can pop out of the Underworld in Central Park, hail a taxi, head down Fifth Avenue with a giant hellhound loping along behind you, and nobody even looks at you funny. -Last Olympian, Rick Riordan. Quote: HELICOPTER. It is a HELICOPTER. You call that thing a 'whirly-bird' one more time, I'll beat you SO bad, your sister's gonna wish she never gave birth to you. -Nick


lamna	May 30 2010, 11:23 AM Post #20
Posts: 21,140 Group: Global Mods Member #26 Joined: Jul 1, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: British	Yours must be more trusting, and I still don't see how hooves affect stealth unless your ware walking on pavement.
	Living Fossils Fósseis Vibos: Reserva Natural 34 MYH, 4 tonne dinosaur. T.Neo Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna? [flash=500,450] Video Magic! [/flash]


Carlos	May 30 2010, 01:50 PM Post #21
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	I can confirm how quiet deer can be: Today I went to "Parque Biológico de Gaia" and a roe deer went very quietly in front of me! I didn't even heard the hooves!
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ATEK Azul	Jun 8 2010, 09:50 PM Post #22
Transhuman Posts: 2,416 Group: Members Member #81 Joined: Sep 20, 2008 Gender: Private Nationality: usa	Can I ask why hooves can't have sharp extensions or sharp edges or some other offensive changes in design? Also why can't dogs evolve powerful jaws capable of breaking leg bones and desabiling prey? Also What if they evolved a body design similar to Cheetah's in addition to hooves? They could possibly become faster then afore mentioned Cheetah and quite possibly become top predators. Also might I ask how the nail of the singular toe that forms the hoove can't surround the toe with padding in the center? This would help with the silence issue.
	I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!


Margaret Pye	Jun 9 2010, 07:29 AM Post #23
Adult Posts: 596 Group: Members Member #267 Joined: Feb 3, 2010 Gender: Female Nationality: Australian	I'm not sure sharp-edged/offensive hooves are the best idea. It seems to me that it would be hard to keep them sharp, since they'd be rubbing against the ground all the time, and they'd be too easy to catch on things when running fast. Hooves make pretty good blunt weapons, though. Not sure about hoofed cheetahs either. It seems to me that cheetahs rely too much on agility and the ability to change direction rapidly, for which paws do work better. (And I don't think it's possible to have the "top predator" niche filled by a cheetah-shaped creature - anything cheetah-like is going to be scrawny and probably fairly small, and easily kleptoparasitised by brawnier, slower-moving creatures.) Dogs certainly could evolve bone-breaking jaws - in fact, I think some extinct forms did. I don't know if that'd make much difference to their hunting strategies, though, because as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong?) spotted hyaenas kill much as wolves and dholes do, by tearing at the belly and whatever bits they can grab, rather than specifically trying to break the legs. ... Sorry if anyone's getting bored with me mentioning spotted hyaenas all thetime, but they're awesome.
	My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.


lamna	Jun 10 2010, 12:48 AM Post #24
Posts: 21,140 Group: Global Mods Member #26 Joined: Jul 1, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: British	Trying to get a flailing leg in your mouth when you can just rip at the stomach is a bit of an unnecessary risk. And hooves are sharp enough as it is to make pretty decent weapons.
	Living Fossils Fósseis Vibos: Reserva Natural 34 MYH, 4 tonne dinosaur. T.Neo Are nipples or genitals necessary, lamna? [flash=500,450] Video Magic! [/flash]


xaritscin	Jun 11 2010, 06:38 PM Post #25
Adult Posts: 990 Group: Members Member #295 Joined: Mar 29, 2010 Gender: Male Nationality: colombian	for canids its better adaptation if they could become bideal and raptor-like.



Practically Uninformed	Jun 11 2010, 06:43 PM Post #26
Informed enough to care Posts: 1,570 Group: Members Member #274 Joined: Feb 20, 2010 Nationality: Born in DC, bred in SC, now in NJ. A partial citizen of Tartarus Favorite Quote: "Ya gotta put the soup-drinker in the flute-lips, and shake it all up!"	That'd be even more difficult and even less likely. They'd have to become arboreal first.
	You may be a king or a lil' street sweeper, but sooner or later, you'll dance with the reaper!


Carlos	Jun 11 2010, 07:21 PM Post #27
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	Hooves are actually not very useful for a bipedal animal. And, anyway, very few mammal groups have the potential of theropod style bipedality
	Lemuria: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/ Terra Alternativa: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/ My Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Carliro


colddigger	Jun 11 2010, 08:23 PM Post #28
Joke's over! Love, Parasky Posts: 9,470 Group: Members Member #143 Joined: Feb 28, 2009 Nationality: Canadian. Just like Phasey! Favorite Quote: "If it weren't for the gutter my mind would be homeless!" - BaliTiger23	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MexyuH-m97A Yeah, I think that for mammals walking with a curled body like a kangaroo mouse to have the front legs off the ground, or a pillar styled spine like a human is more likely... --------- vid is a bipedal dog, I imagine that a species of bipedal dos would be fairly similar since canines have a tendency of being so incredibly front heavy -if you were to consider the hips the axis. Edited by colddigger, Jun 11 2010, 08:25 PM.
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Margaret Pye	Jun 11 2010, 11:18 PM Post #29
Adult Posts: 596 Group: Members Member #267 Joined: Feb 3, 2010 Gender: Female Nationality: Australian	Bipeds do seem to be better at sustained running, but it would be very difficult to evolve a dog into a biped - I can't come up with any sensible intermediates off the top of my head. On the subject of "mammalian dromaeosaurs" and the fact that almost all bipedal mammals hop - what's wrong with a large hopping predator, either cursorial or ambush? Giant carnivorous jerboas would be fun! Or a "carnivorous wallaby" that was actually wallaby-shaped, rather than those disappointing overgrown hypsiprymnodonts. I vote for some sort of metatherian - there seems to be some evolutionary constraint on the size of hopping eutherians (maybe it's hard to make the pelvis robust enough with the strains of eutherian reproduction?).
	My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.


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