Wolf in sheeps' shoes

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Wolf in sheeps' shoes; Might canids evolve hooves?
Topic Started: May 23 2010, 05:11 AM (1,477 Views)
Margaret Pye	May 23 2010, 05:11 AM Post #1
Adult Posts: 596 Group: Members Member #267 Joined: Feb 3, 2010 Gender: Female Nationality: Australian	Apart from Urocyon - which is practically a surviving transitional form - dog legs are highly specialised for long-distance running. They're reduced enough to be useless for anything else besides digging and maybe a bit of swimming. No grasping ability. No use as weapons - dogs rely entirely on their teeth to kill large prey. No sideways flexibility. They might as well be hooves. And the same applies to the convergently similar feliform Crocuta. So who thinks it'd be logical for futuristic canids to go a bit further with their cursorial adaptations, and actually develop hooves? Perhaps only the specialised megapredatory forms, because the rat-hunting species pounce on prey and pin it with the forepaws, and hooves probably wouldn't work for that. But the hooves would work just as well for digging. If they were reasonably broad and sharp-edged, they'd be just as good for agility and traction. And they might be faster. Anyone want to design a dhole descendant with hooves? Or if you think it's too optimistic to have dholes escape the human-caused mass extinction (certainly, lycaons seem to be on their way out), then evolve a future jackal or fox into a dhole-like form and then give that hooves - jackals will definitely outlast humans, unless nuclear weapons are involved.
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Carlos	May 23 2010, 05:27 AM Post #2
Adveho in me Lucifero Posts: 11,702 Group: Members Member #5 Joined: May 31, 2008 Gender: Male Nationality: Portugayse Favorite Quote: Blame is the playing of children and is given to many like a gift that cannot be returned. Acceptance is the tool of the mature that is rarely loaned out.	I think its quite likely.
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Dean	May 23 2010, 06:50 AM Post #3
Infant Posts: 96 Group: Members Member #259 Joined: Jan 13, 2010	Sounds plausible. Don't forget that there was a very species-rich group of wolf-like carnivorous ungulates, the Mesonychids, which were the main mammalian predators until bigger and more specialized members of Carnivora evolved.



Kain	May 23 2010, 09:24 AM Post #4
Adolescent Posts: 159 Group: Members Member #238 Joined: Oct 13, 2009	It does sound plausible, but wouldn't hooves be bad for stalking prey? The wolf's soft feet helps it also sneak near their prey, silently, if I'm not mistaken. Wouldn't hooves make more noise, making it difficult to sneak near the prey to attack?
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Kingpin	May 23 2010, 10:17 AM Post #5
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,600 Group: Members Member #248 Joined: Nov 7, 2009 Nationality: United States Favorite Quote: Which way is the enemy's gate?	I can't imagine pouncing going very well either if they had hooves. I know those claws don't do much, but at least that's kind of a weapon.
	Quote: I love New York. You can pop out of the Underworld in Central Park, hail a taxi, head down Fifth Avenue with a giant hellhound loping along behind you, and nobody even looks at you funny. -Last Olympian, Rick Riordan. Quote: HELICOPTER. It is a HELICOPTER. You call that thing a 'whirly-bird' one more time, I'll beat you SO bad, your sister's gonna wish she never gave birth to you. -Nick


Kamidio	May 23 2010, 10:50 AM Post #6
The Game Master of the SSU:NC Posts: 14,725 Group: Members Member #149 Joined: Mar 12, 2009 Nationality: Who knows?~♪ Favorite Quote: "Do you remember how many loaves of bread you have eaten in your life?" - Dio Gender: Dude	Only if canines become herbivorous, which might I add is highly unlikely. Edited by Kamidio, May 23 2010, 10:59 AM.
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Pando	May 23 2010, 10:52 AM Post #7
Obey or I'll send you to the moon Posts: 5,648 Group: Members Member #275 Joined: Feb 24, 2010 Area of expertise: Future Evolution	Dogs are omnivores, so they're possible herbivores. I'd say hooves are only possible on tundra or rain forest, where the ground is soft enough for hooves not to make any extra sound.



Kain	May 23 2010, 12:23 PM Post #8
Adolescent Posts: 159 Group: Members Member #238 Joined: Oct 13, 2009	Well, even sheep some time were carnivores and resembled wolves, so it is a reasonable suggestion. There are reasons why the herbivore sheep have hooves and the carnivore wolves do not. One of them is, of course, sound. I guess there are other reasons, too, but I don't remember them right now.
	Everybody wants to find a buried treasure chest. But no one wants to bury one... If you do, be my guest.


Practically Uninformed	May 23 2010, 12:34 PM Post #9
Informed enough to care Posts: 1,570 Group: Members Member #274 Joined: Feb 20, 2010 Nationality: Born in DC, bred in SC, now in NJ. A partial citizen of Tartarus Favorite Quote: "Ya gotta put the soup-drinker in the flute-lips, and shake it all up!"	Perhaps, but perhaps not. In comparison to some other groups of animals, the pawed carnivores tend not to go so far or to become so specialized as to not leave room for some regression or adaptation to a new niche.
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Dean	May 23 2010, 01:40 PM Post #10
Infant Posts: 96 Group: Members Member #259 Joined: Jan 13, 2010	Less adaptation is required to produce a canid-like carnivore from the basic rodent-like mammalian body. It doesn't require the development of a complex plant-digesting stomach and intestines, and if we look at it morphologically, a wolf and a rat look more similar to eachother than a wolf and a sheep or a rat and a sheep.



Margaret Pye	May 26 2010, 08:08 PM Post #11
Adult Posts: 596 Group: Members Member #267 Joined: Feb 3, 2010 Gender: Female Nationality: Australian	Wolves aren't particularly stealthy, though. Their ambush-hunting skills are pathetic. And the much more specialised lycaons are even worse - they have all the camouflage of a zebra. "I can't imagine pouncing going very well either if they had hooves. I know those claws don't do much, but at least that's kind of a weapon." That's a very good point, which is why my original post specifically mentioned specialised megapredatory canids and why I was wanting to evolve it from a lycaon or dhole. Light, why do you think they'd have to become herbivorous? Why wouldn't hooves work on a carnivore?
	My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.


Kingpin	May 26 2010, 09:20 PM Post #12
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,600 Group: Members Member #248 Joined: Nov 7, 2009 Nationality: United States Favorite Quote: Which way is the enemy's gate?	Well carnivores have to find a way to bring their prey down. Hooves might make you a bit faster, but unless you can incapacitate prey for long enough to kill it, you won't have many food sources.
	Quote: I love New York. You can pop out of the Underworld in Central Park, hail a taxi, head down Fifth Avenue with a giant hellhound loping along behind you, and nobody even looks at you funny. -Last Olympian, Rick Riordan. Quote: HELICOPTER. It is a HELICOPTER. You call that thing a 'whirly-bird' one more time, I'll beat you SO bad, your sister's gonna wish she never gave birth to you. -Nick


Pando	May 26 2010, 09:34 PM Post #13
Obey or I'll send you to the moon Posts: 5,648 Group: Members Member #275 Joined: Feb 24, 2010 Area of expertise: Future Evolution	They could develop a mouth halfway between hyaenodon and entelodonts so that they use their mouth to kill, and they can have thicker feet (they don't need cloven hooves) to take down any prey they need to.



Kingpin	May 26 2010, 09:47 PM Post #14
Prime Specimen Posts: 1,600 Group: Members Member #248 Joined: Nov 7, 2009 Nationality: United States Favorite Quote: Which way is the enemy's gate?	Their basic hunting stratagy would be ramming their prey to the ground and quickly biting the throat then. They'd probably need a bigger body for that to have much effect. Pouncing allowed them to at least get leverage over whatever they wanted to kill.
	Quote: I love New York. You can pop out of the Underworld in Central Park, hail a taxi, head down Fifth Avenue with a giant hellhound loping along behind you, and nobody even looks at you funny. -Last Olympian, Rick Riordan. Quote: HELICOPTER. It is a HELICOPTER. You call that thing a 'whirly-bird' one more time, I'll beat you SO bad, your sister's gonna wish she never gave birth to you. -Nick


Margaret Pye	May 29 2010, 12:00 AM Post #15
Adult Posts: 596 Group: Members Member #267 Joined: Feb 3, 2010 Gender: Female Nationality: Australian	No, their hunting strategy would be the same hunting strategy wolves use today - biting whatever parts of the creature they can reach, and trying to disembowel it.
	My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.


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