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| [ARCHIVED] Land Octopi? | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 30 2010, 02:57 PM (1,964 Views) | |
| Pando | Apr 30 2010, 02:57 PM Post #1 |
Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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I had them in Postozoic I, took them out for Postozoic II, but now I've been researching cephalopods more and now I'm stuck at a midpoint. What should I do with them? My brain's hurting! If I accept them, the starting point is in Asia, around the point that the Swampus from TFIW started from. And are these plausible? Tree Octopus:  Hexapus (picture from Dromornis of DevArt, but I like the concept): 
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| Practically Uninformed | Apr 30 2010, 09:20 PM Post #16 |
Informed enough to care
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In that case, it'd probably stay as strong, stubby fins. I was simply musing on how the tentacles could become better skeletonized. It'd only be the first 6, though; the innermost 2 would be kept soft and long for manipulation and what have you. |
| You may be a king or a lil' street sweeper, but sooner or later, you'll dance with the reaper! | |
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| Pando | Apr 30 2010, 09:24 PM Post #17 |
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Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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Actually I wanted 3 lines of land octopi. The hexapi, the tetrapi, and tree octopi. Problems with land octopi: Skeleton Respiratory System Water Retination system Good oxygen carrier Die in young age Still 2 problems left. Dang, I'm going to lose this debate. |
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| Canis Lupis | Apr 30 2010, 09:49 PM Post #18 |
Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Glad you're realizing that.  The dying at a young age isn't really a problem, so long as they are able to produce a large number of offspring. Adult mayflies live for one day, flies for 48 hours. Many mammals live for only a decade. It seems the me that the larger you make a creature, the longer it lives. Of course, that's for non-sapients. Sapients could be the size of a rat and still live for 70 years or more. Actually, Pando, the blood that cephalopods possess right now is a great way to retain oxygen. In fact, it is even more effective than chordate blood. I was talking to Metalraptor about this very issue. He sent me a concept for a tetrasquid. Basically, a tetrapod-like squid (actually a cuttlefish. They are the most likely to go onto land, with octopi second). He noticed that, since cephalopods first appeared in the fossil record, the jet propulsion system has underdeveloped over the years and the lateral fins have greatly developed. It is for this very reason that cephalotaceans (a concept in 225MYF TFIB and Spec. Basically squids that resemble whales. Whalosquids if you prefer) are so plausible. Especially in cuttlefish, it is not hard to imagine the cuttlebone (often considered a primitive feature, but when it comes to land cephalopods, it is quite advanced) evolving into a full-blown skeleton, reachng out into the lateral fins to form actual fins. But I'd better save the argument. Until later.
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| Pando | Apr 30 2010, 10:07 PM Post #19 |
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Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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Hemocyanin is great at retaining oxygen, not giving it. Though that can change. The cuttlefish shape is restricting it though. And the Blue-ringed Octopus actually lives on the ocean floor, doesn't swim. My whalosquids are not whale-like though. They're just whale-like in the fact that they're mostly filter-feeders and they're 200 feet long, the closest length only the whales and sauropods reached. Problems with land octopi: Skeleton Respiratory System Water Retination system Good oxygen carrier Still think the hemocyanin needs a few tweaks before it will be good for land. I would say that both octopus and cuttlefish have an equal chance, as the octopus is more terrestrial but the cuttlefish has the cuttelbone. |
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| Canis Lupis | Apr 30 2010, 10:16 PM Post #20 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Hmm...well, I'm sure that the chemistry of the hemocyanin blood could change to make giving up oxygen to the organism easier. It would take some time, yes, but it wouldn't be that hard to do. |
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| Pando | Apr 30 2010, 10:19 PM Post #21 |
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Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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Skeleton Respiratory System Water Retination system Good oxygen carrier Die in young age I have just lost the cephalopod debate, at least on octopi. |
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| Ànraich | Apr 30 2010, 10:59 PM Post #22 |
L'évolution Spéculative est moi
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Here's the way I see it so far: Freshwater: If you're making up land octopi anyways, why not have them come from a fictional lineage of freshwater cephalopods? Perhaps they adapt to live in the ocean yet go inland to lay their eggs, like salmon. Then they eventually become geographically isolated from the ocean and adapt. Skeleton: What's wrong with what it already has? If gastropods can support themselves on land, why can't octopi? Respiratory System: Cutaneous respiration, though it will need some form of lung to supplement it's oxygen intake. Most amphibians can absorb oxygen through their skin, but to do it they must remain moist and it cannot provide all the oxygen they need. And most amphibians are smaller than most cephalopods. Water Retention System: I'm drawing a blank here. No idea. Good oxygen carrier: Blood? I don't really have a good idea on this one. Die in young age: This one is easy; intelligence. Cephalopods are frail in the ocean, let alone on land. If they're going to survive on the land, they'll have to work together and teach their children how to survive, as well as care for them. This will probably limit the number of offspring they produce, though. And it's not really a stretch, cephalopods already have intelligence akin to primitive humans. They use tools, problem solve, and conceptualize. How would that not be an advantage on land? I highly doubt cuttlefish would move onto land. Their body shape is too adapted to an underwater environment to make the move to land easy. You have to become an amphibian before you're a terrestrial creature, and cuttlefish, with their odd shape, would quickly lose out to just about anything else that was competing for that niche. Edited by Ànraich, Apr 30 2010, 11:02 PM.
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We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself
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| Pando | Apr 30 2010, 11:36 PM Post #23 |
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Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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I like the freshwater idea. The skeleton is needed for them to grow bigger than a gastrapod. Respiratory System: The pallial cavity will grow into a lung-structure. Happened in gastrapods. Water Retination System: They got leathery skin that can hold the water for 1-5 days, depending on species. But when they live on a swamp water retination isn't that important. Good Oxygen Carrier: Make the hemocyanin a little more ready to give up oxygen. Die of Young Age: They lay thousands of eggs, like amphibians. While some will die, some will survive. The Pacific Squid does it. Or they can develop a parenting system like the swampus, given their intelligence. |
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| Toad of Spades | May 1 2010, 12:22 AM Post #24 |
Clorothod
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They could have a skeleton that starts out as multi-jointed cartilage-like supports for their tentacles that allow them support when reaching for prey or objects. Also they could have a rib-cage like structure to support the organs in the body cavity. Then they could calcify and the tentacles can be used for walking.
Edited by Toad of Spades, May 1 2010, 12:24 AM.
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Sorry Link, I don't give credit. Come back when you're a little...MMMMMM...Richer. Bread is an animal and humans are %90 aluminum. | |
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| Pando | May 1 2010, 12:36 AM Post #25 |
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Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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Actually the octopus start walking with their tentacles as they do today. How about this for octopus land colonization?
Think it's good? |
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| Toad of Spades | May 1 2010, 12:47 AM Post #26 |
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Clorothod
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Its good. How will you have the skeleton develop? |
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Sorry Link, I don't give credit. Come back when you're a little...MMMMMM...Richer. Bread is an animal and humans are %90 aluminum. | |
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| Pando | May 1 2010, 12:51 AM Post #27 |
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Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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Probably a modified radula. |
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| colddigger | May 1 2010, 01:18 AM Post #28 |
Joke's over! Love, Parasky
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One big problem I have with cephalopods is that they would lack support for their body at their back end, standing on their head and rushing around on their tentacles doesn't sound very likely -possible if you give them good balance organs, strengthen the muscle around their heads to hold the body up, shorten strengthen and reinforce the tentacles, maybe change the shape of the body a bit and a lot more crap that is probably more trouble than it's worth-, and the alternative is to drag their organ bag across the ground to be attacked, parasitized, and damaged -a way to avoid problems with this could be to have a tough pad or shell that is constantly replenished to prevent such nonsense-. Flipping them over and hopping around on their limbless torso is just a big no. -'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-'-' How big do they even have to be anyway? I mean, you could make a grasshopper sized land cephalopod, fill it with cartilage or something, give it a massive slug-like mantle-lung removing the oxygen problems, dragging itself about using tentacles at that size shouldn't be too difficult, being such a size removing water from their system to stay salty shouldn't be too difficult if that's the way you wanted to go -or just have them seek salts from elsewhere-, and also finding water to rehydrate themselves wouldn't be too difficult either-under fallen leaves for instance-, in fact being a leaf litter predator might be just fine for them. Also being small having efficient oxygen carrying blood isn't particularly important -especially with that massive lung-. |
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| Pando | May 1 2010, 01:31 AM Post #29 |
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Obey or I'll send you to the moon
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I want them to be 3 feet tall at the maximum (size doesn't include the crocodile-flipper-feet). I didn't think of balance. They would look something like this, without the mantle as they're octopi, not squid: The tetrapi would have stockier legs so that the 4 tentacles doesn't knock itself over. |
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| Practically Uninformed | May 1 2010, 06:08 AM Post #30 |
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Informed enough to care
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As I said, it's unlikely they'll be able to lift themselves. They'd be comfortable with dragging themselves along like a crocodile on their leathery bellies. |
| You may be a king or a lil' street sweeper, but sooner or later, you'll dance with the reaper! | |
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