Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Speculative biology is simultaneously a science and form of art in which one speculates on the possibilities of life and evolution. What could the world look like if dinosaurs had never gone extinct? What could alien lifeforms look like? What kinds of plants and animals might exist in the far future? These questions and more are tackled by speculative biologists, and the Speculative Evolution welcomes all relevant ideas, inquiries, and world-building projects alike. With a member base comprising users from across the world, our community is the largest and longest-running place of gathering for speculative biologists on the web.

While unregistered users are able to browse the forum on a basic level, registering an account provides additional forum access not visible to guests as well as the ability to join in discussions and contribute yourself! Registration is free and instantaneous.

Join our community today!

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Have the aliens landed?; Have the little green men made contact, or is it a figment of our imagination?
Topic Started: Mar 12 2010, 02:42 PM (5,489 Views)
Practically Uninformed
Member Avatar
Informed enough to care
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
But since the so-called "sighted" aliens seem to have perfectly understandable societies (i.e. the scientific Grays and the imperial Reptilians), they thus probably have not landed. Thus, we have not met aliens yet.
You may be a king or a lil' street sweeper, but sooner or later, you'll dance with the reaper!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
T.Neo
Member Avatar
Translunar injection: TLI
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Quote:
 
Im not saying aborigines would have spaceships!
im saying alien society could be radiccaly different from ours , meaning communication/deals etc could be difficult, i used the example of aborigines because no deal was ever made with them (except in victoria) because the majority had no formal leaders who had the authority to make a deal.


I never said anything about aborigines building starships either.

However, due to the fact that building such starships requires some form of cohesive organisation, a society similar to that of aboriginal society would simply not make sense.

If any sort of civilisation exists, let alone a space faring one, some sort of organisation with a leader (or leaders) will exist. Whereas the structure of the organisation, or the method in which the leader(s) are chosen could differ radically you won't get a tribal society building civilisations and starships. Sorry.

Quote:
 
But since the so-called "sighted" aliens seem to have perfectly understandable societies (i.e. the scientific Grays and the imperial Reptilians), they thus probably have not landed. Thus, we have not met aliens yet.


Wait what?

You do realise that if alien encounters are to be studied with any degree of seriousness (which is difficult), the original accounts should be taken without all that hokey-pokey mythos (which is essentially what allegations of "Grays" being "scientific" and "Reptilians" being "imperial" are). That is, if the original accounts are to be believed at all...

There are far more sensible reasons for why alien encounter accounts are nonsense.

A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ddraig Goch
Member Avatar
Ar hyd y nos

There is one explanation for tales of abduction, that apparently it's a memory of being born - seeing a bright light, in a room full of strange people, who do tests on you... What do you think?
Save the Blibbering Humdinger from extinction!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Practically Uninformed
Member Avatar
Informed enough to care
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Quote:
 
Wait what?

You do realise that if alien encounters are to be studied with any degree of seriousness (which is difficult), the original accounts should be taken without all that hokey-pokey mythos (which is essentially what allegations of "Grays" being "scientific" and "Reptilians" being "imperial" are). That is, if the original accounts are to be believed at all...

There are far more sensible reasons for why alien encounter accounts are nonsense.


I know, I know. It's just...I was trying to tie in the whole debate on alien culture with the subject at hand.
...I'll just go.
You may be a king or a lil' street sweeper, but sooner or later, you'll dance with the reaper!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
T.Neo
Member Avatar
Translunar injection: TLI
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Quote:
 
There is one explanation for tales of abduction, that apparently it's a memory of being born - seeing a bright light, in a room full of strange people, who do tests on you... What do you think?


Interesting, although I believe that it was discredited for lack of evidence- the Sleep Paralysis theory for example, makes more sense.

I read a theory in a local paper about a "demon" in Zulu culture and soforth, the tokoloshe. The tokoloshe is somewhat similar to a short gray actually, in basic concept. So it has a lot to do with the culture of the experiencer...

Anyway, the theory was that the tokoloshe was actually an interpretation of humanoid figures that appear during epileptic seizures (apparently such hallucinations are common in seizures), and that the basis for these hallucinations is the self-image of the person at a very young age (or even within the womb): diminutive, large head, large eyes etc.

Ok, so it is just an idea, but one that could make sense- for the tokoloshe and for alien sightings/abductions/etc- the alien is a self-image of a very young individual.

Birth is also IMO a very traumatic experience (physiologically speaking)- I would not be surprised if some sort of latent subconcious memory retains it. It's kind of like "you like it in here? Tough. Yank! prod! jab! wrap! Awww..."

A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Temporary
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Actually, a grey is exactly what a human would look like to a baby's still developing eyes, especially when you add in an untrained visual center to our brain.

Well, except the all black almond shaped eyes, but you see what I mean.

It could be connected to early stimulus, but I doubt it's to any specific memory.
Quote:
 
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear


I'm here.

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Should we bring back Recon? Click here to share your opinion.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
seascorpion
Member Avatar
Why Can't I Hold All These Mongols?

T NEO for the last time i didn't mean aliens would be the same as aboriginies, i meant they could lack concepts that we have or they could have concepts we don't have. for example in the book footfall the aliens have no concept of diplomacy instead in their society when two groups encounter each other for the first time, they fight to determine whose group is dominant and incorparate the defeated survivors into their group.
Edited by seascorpion, Mar 31 2010, 02:11 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ànraich
Member Avatar
L'évolution Spéculative est moi

Quote:
 
However, due to the fact that building such starships requires some form of cohesive organisation, a society similar to that of aboriginal society would simply not make sense.


Not necessarily. It doesn't make sense to humans that something decentralized like that would be able to accomplish such feats, but maybe to a race of predatory organisms with highly developed brains capable of high levels of individual intelligence it does.

Quote:
 
If any sort of civilisation exists, let alone a space faring one, some sort of organisation with a leader (or leaders) will exist. Whereas the structure of the organisation, or the method in which the leader(s) are chosen could differ radically you won't get a tribal society building civilisations and starships. Sorry.


Again, human civilization must have a leader. Don't compare all intelligences to human intelligence.

For the most part I would assume that most civilizations would have an organized structure at least similar to human ones, given that other intelligent organisms will probably be as odd as humans (compared to the other organisms on their planet), and just as weak (by their planet's standards, anyways). However to say that all civilizations must be like ours is jumping the gun. We won't know until First Contact whether intelligence comes in just one flavor or many, so to speak.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

Tree That Owns Itself
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ddraig Goch
Member Avatar
Ar hyd y nos

It'd be a lot easier if first contact was just like in Spore....

So, I think it's safe to say that very few people here believe that the aliens have landed. So, is there anyone here who doesn't believe in aliens at all?
Save the Blibbering Humdinger from extinction!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
T.Neo
Member Avatar
Translunar injection: TLI
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Quote:
 
Not necessarily. It doesn't make sense to humans that something decentralized like that would be able to accomplish such feats, but maybe to a race of predatory organisms with highly developed brains capable of high levels of individual intelligence it does.


So you've got a population of people who have highly developed brains capable of high levels of individual intelligence (you mean, like humans?). It just means that you now need leadership with highly developed brains capable of high levels of individual intelligence to control that population, or whatever they're working on.

More individual brains makes decentralised society worse. Perhaps if you had an unintelligent organism in a hive-like society, like an ant colony, it would be the best analogy to a decentralised society.

Quote:
 
Again, human civilization must have a leader. Don't compare all intelligences to human intelligence.


Indeed, but let's face it- human intelligence is based off a number of evolutionarily valuable traits, and a lot of those traits are going to hold firm elsewhere. It's still a very good point though, perhaps there should be more research into the ids of parrots and cetaceans.

I also never said that another civilisation would require a leader, just leadership of some kind.

Quote:
 
For the most part I would assume that most civilizations would have an organized structure at least similar to human ones, given that other intelligent organisms will probably be as odd as humans (compared to the other organisms on their planet), and just as weak (by their planet's standards, anyways). However to say that all civilizations must be like ours is jumping the gun. We won't know until First Contact whether intelligence comes in just one flavor or many, so to speak.


Are we that "odd"? I mean, we share psychology with pretty much all apes, and a lot of our psychology with other mammals, and there's even evidence that parrots share traits like sense of humor with us.

And while we are weak, is that really a prerequisite for evolving sapience? It makes sense, but it shouldn't dictate psychology or society.

While other sophonts may be nothing like us, I think it's too far saying that civilisation could be wildly different. It has to have a structure to be a civilisation.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
seascorpion
Member Avatar
Why Can't I Hold All These Mongols?

T NEO
i understand your point, "interstellar nations must have structural civilisation, yak,yak" i understand that, but the structure of their society could be different, yet be just as functional ( or it could be the same) but that depends on the social structure of the species
Edited by seascorpion, Apr 5 2010, 05:48 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

In such a large galaxy, there are going to be widely varying civilisations.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Temporary
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I disagree. I do beleive there are probably intelligent aliens out there, I severly doubt there will be many. There maybe a small handful in our galaxy, but I severly doubt it could be that much. Intelligence is rough to evolve.
Edited by Temporary, Apr 7 2010, 10:55 AM.
Quote:
 
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear


I'm here.

Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Should we bring back Recon? Click here to share your opinion.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

Drake equation time!

So, we have lots of stars. Each probably has more than five planets, of which one or two will be suitable. Life has a probablility of arising of, say, 0.5. This may become multicellular, chance maybe 0.1. Intelligence, maybe 0.5 of those. Then lifetime- either a few thousand or into the millions, lets try 100,000.

Was that too optimistic?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
T.Neo
Member Avatar
Translunar injection: TLI
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Quote:
 
i understand your point, "interstellar nations must have structural civilisation, yak,yak" i understand that, but the structure of their society could be different, yet be just as functional ( or it could be the same) but that depends on the social structure of the species


I agree that structure could differ, but I think it'll be basically the same everywhere.

Societal structure may or may not have anything to do with the tendancies of the species- our society and evolutionary living traits differ.

On the topic of the number of sophonts, a little meaningless thought experiment.

The Milky Way galaxy is estimated to have 100 to 400 billion stars. Let's go with the lower estimation, though we don't have to.

Let's say that 1% of those stars have "habitable" planets. Let's also say that 1% of those planets will develop complex life, and that 1% of those planets have sapient organisms.

That's 100 000 sophonts in the Milky Way. While this may seem small to the total number of stars, imagine filling an empty field with 100 000 people. It's a lot in human terms at least.

This is without any real numbers, mind you. It's just to show that with even with small percentages, you get big numbers. Because there is a big number of stars in the galaxy. :P

It's entirely possible that the percentages will be higher than that.

Quote:
 
So, we have lots of stars. Each probably has more than five planets, of which one or two will be suitable.


It doesn't work that way. Firstly, some stars are just not suitable here. This includes variable stars, O class stars that blow away their protoplanetary disks, stars in globular clusters and the galactic core, low metallicity stars that don't accrete planets as easily, stars in the vicinity of O class stars (yep, they blow away the protoplanetary disks of other stars as well) and certain binary arrangements.

Secondly, planetary system evolution is... odd. All that can be safely said is that every planet, and every planetary system, is different. No two planetary systems are the same. So while you may get a few planets in the habitable zone, there's no telling that they're habitable- they might be too small or might have suffered an event in their past that made them uninhabitable, like Venus. There might be gas giants in the habitable zone instead- they might not form moons massive enough to be safe abodes for life (there are certain theories that sub brown-dwarf mass objects won't form large enough moons at all)

The formation of suitable planet(s) for life around a star is tricky - there are plenty of forces that can affect it.
Edited by T.Neo, Apr 10 2010, 05:48 AM.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply