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| Possibility of a sapient metatherian; Could they evolve? | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 15 2010, 01:38 PM (1,429 Views) | |
| Dean | Feb 15 2010, 01:38 PM Post #1 |
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Okay, let's imagine that either eutherians never evolved, or there exists a landmass, where metatherians thrive without eutherian interference. Could a metatherian eventually develop sapience? Metatherians are very similar to eutherians, and given enough time, metatherians could converge into forms resembling eutherians (Thylacosmilus, thylacine, etc...) There seems to be many euarchontoglires-like metatherians, maybe a primate analogue can evolve from one of them. But the main question is, is the metatherian body capable of developing a very large and complex brain? Because of their reproductive strategy, embryos need to over-develop front limbs and facial features, and other parts of the head related to feeding, at the cost of the brain. Also, they don't have a corpus callosum in their brain. Would this make more complex neural processes slower, or would a metatherian on the road to sapience eventually develop an analogue? Sugar gliders seem quite social, and according to old reports about the thylacine, it seemed pretty intelligent, and easy to tame to be a pet. |
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| Holben | Feb 18 2010, 06:03 AM Post #16 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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Kangaroo civilisation, the national sport could be kick boxing. ![]() Whooppeee! *resists urge to act it out* But anyway, kangaroos can't spread over such a wide area as us humans so cannot exploit resources so effectively. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Dean | Feb 18 2010, 05:21 PM Post #17 |
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For some reason, this "advanced marsupial civilization" idea made me think of the cartoon Blinky Bill. But really, many things would be different in a metatherian civilisation. Embryonic development would've been better understood since the "stone age" since it would've been more easily observed directly. Abortion would be a less controversial issue, because simply not allowing a fetus to climb into the marsupium may have been a perfectly accepted mode of birth control since the stone age. Since metatherians don't have a corpus callosum in their brain (a large router-like organ that makes many connections between the left and right brain hemispheres) their thinking patterns and logic might've become completely different to that of a eutherian. Maybe it wouldn't allow that much brain specialization, and every part of the brain would be useful for anything, no splitting of left and right-brained activities. Because of their reproductive system, their sexual habits could also have interesting things about it. It might be a kind of foreplay or a symbol of mutual trust to reach into eachother's marsupium, and there could be two-pronged vibrators, corresponding to the double vagina of females. Because of their somewhat different locomotor system and the presence of epipubic bones which support the marsupium and the legs, their sports and modes of transport would also differ. Maybe sports in which jumping takes place would be more important, and numerous, since even very eutherian-like metatherians like the Thylacine employ a kind of jump-running when they need to move fast. Also, in some metatherians it was noted that at least some level of communication takes place by pheromones instead of other means, and at a higher level than at eutherians. Maybe a sapient metatherian could consciously use pheromone signals to send other ones simple messages mainly about emotions, and basic things. Edited by Dean, Feb 18 2010, 05:34 PM.
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| Holben | Feb 19 2010, 04:47 AM Post #18 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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1. Oh that's bad. 2. Dogs pounce and hop while hunting, and so do cats. Do you mean like that? 3. There are people on islands who smell each others' armpits to gauge their disposition. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Dean | Feb 19 2010, 04:56 AM Post #19 |
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I mean that it was noticed, that when the thylacine needed to run fast, it employed a kind of jump running that was more like the locomotion of the kangaroo, than the wolf-like dash of placental canids. Edited by Dean, Feb 19 2010, 05:04 AM.
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| Holben | Feb 19 2010, 04:58 AM Post #20 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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Oh yeah, like that. I see. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Margaret Pye | Feb 19 2010, 05:39 AM Post #21 |
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I don't understand. Do you mean they're stuck in Australia? I'm not sure how that's a problem - it's a big continent. And any sapient species except a very alien one would invent boats and eventually spread worldwide. Interesting ideas, Dean. Does anyone want to create a particular species of sapient metatherian, so that we can design a few cultures for it? |
| My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont. | |
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| Holben | Feb 19 2010, 05:47 AM Post #22 |
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As in their diets and life styles limit the environments they can live in, and certain functions can only be carried out in, say, grasslands. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Margaret Pye | Feb 19 2010, 06:00 AM Post #23 |
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Note: I was suggesting an omnivorous kangaroo. Apart from that, I still don't understand what you mean - can you give some specific examples of how their lifestyles are limited, and what functions you mean? The existing eastern grey kangaroo doesn't seem very specialised; it's found in many different habitats. |
| My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont. | |
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| Holben | Feb 19 2010, 06:02 AM Post #24 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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I was thinking about their innards, actually, and how they affect habitation and diet, but if you've changed their digestive system that certainly frees them up. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Margaret Pye | Feb 19 2010, 06:22 AM Post #25 |
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Not changed, exactly. I was wanting to evolve intelligence in very, very primitive macropods, not the advanced obligate herbivores. Have you ever heard of Propleopus or Ekadelta? Known theatrically as "ripper roos"? Seems to have been a clade of carnivores and omnivores? It probably is possible to evolve a sophont that eats only low-grade plant material - elephants are pretty smart, so the low calorie and protein diet can't be that absolute a barrier. But it's a lot easier to figure out intermediate forms to sapience if the starting point eats fruit and rats, or just rats, than starting from a modern kangaroo. |
| My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont. | |
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| Holben | Feb 19 2010, 06:50 AM Post #26 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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Elephants are smart in some ways and seriously mentally challenged in others. Yup, if you're starting from the 'rippers' it would make things easier. With humans, we started by eating anything we could get our grubby hands on, even dirt, so we had a rather large scope for eating. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Dean | Feb 19 2010, 06:54 AM Post #27 |
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Here is a human-analogue idea. (I'll also think up of something for the sapient sugar glider thing) Marsupial Homo Sapiens "marsuhumans" Short description: The metatherian that is most similar to placental humans. Evolution: A group of tree-dwelling primate-like Petauroidea started evolving on a path, that strongly mirrors that of humans. Because of the relatively unspecialised bodyform of primates and evolving under similar pressures that placental hominids also faced, eventually, a metatherian human-analogue evolved. Description: The species today are sapient omnivores, with a bipedal, upright stance, and with the same level of intelligence that placental humans have, but it's a bit different. (More on that later). Development: After a short pregnancy, the fetus emerges and starts climbing into the marsupium, which opens upward like that of a kangaroo. (Gently picking up the fetus and putting it into the marsupium to help it is a cultural practice, but if an unwanted pregnancy occurs, then they instead make it suckle on a strong sedative and milk mixture from a fake nipple.) The joey remains in the marsupium for two years, since there is no concern that the head would get stuck in the pelvis, like in eutherian humans, so full development from a fetal to a small child state can occur in there. After a child emerges, it already has a basic level of intelligence, can hold it's urine and feces and if left in the wild, could easily survive as a feral child. The next three years are spent with rapid learning of the most essantial things in language, culture, and behavior by observing others around him/her. After that, school starts. Puberty occurs around the age of 10-14 like in placental humans, and later development, lifespan, old age and death is like that of a placental human. Body Systems: Most systems of the body work like those of a eutherian human, notable differences are in the nervous, urogential and locomotor systems. The marsuhuman brain is both very similar and very different from the placental human brain. Firstly, there is no left and right-brained division of activities, but simply the whole cerebrum is like a large unified processor, and any part of it can work on anything with equal efficiency. Because of this, marsuhumans have less mood swings, their behavior is generally more rational than that of a eutherian human, and they are less prone to violence, depression and stress, instead solving their problems by carefully thinking it over, analyzing it, and coming up with a rational answer. Most of the time, they notice that they were angry over petty things, and simply won't let these things bother them anymore. Because the brain isn't that specialised most marsuhumans live in a jack-of-all-trades way, and there are no people who are very good at mathematics but are very lame at art, and vice versa. Their locomotor system also has it's differences: They walk upright and bipedally, but when fast movement is required they crouch down a little, start running quickly then start quickly alternating between a few running steps then a kangaroo-hop. They can also jump much higher than eutherian humans, and a Matrix-like parkour, in which they jump from rooftop to rooftop is a popular urban sport among them. The urogenital system also has it's differences. Because both males and females have a cloaca, both urinate and defecate sitting down, or squatting, so there are no urinals in bathrooms. In fact, because the process is so similar in both sexes and isn't as connected to the reproductive system, people aren't that shy about it, and almost every bathroom is co-ed. Culture: Because of the above things we can clearly see, that their culture is both similar and different from that of eutherian humans. Because reproduction has always been a process more directly observable, and their brain structure permitted a more logical way of thinking from the start, sexuality was better understood since their stone age, and wasn't viewed as a shameful thing in many cultures. Their different kind of reproductive system also led to many kinds of sexual activites, for example, next to blowjobs and handjobs, there are marsujobs (sticking the penis into the marsupium). There were never really any "dark ages" periods and culture evolved in an uninterrupted line, starting from an ancient greek-like culture, to one that is pretty similar to the one we live in, but with less wars and crime. Technology is a bit less advanced here, mirroring the 1920's of our world, since without so many wars, there wasn't much drive behind rapidly developing new technologies, and with many people being jack-of-all-trades, there weren't many geniuses who could lay down revolutionary ideas about many natural sciences. The general mindset of people is also different, they are less concerned about the past and the future, and instead focus on being happy with the present and what they got. This and the live-and-let-live mentality being the general since the stone age resulted in a less advanced but more peaceful and happier culture. |
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| Margaret Pye | Feb 19 2010, 07:23 AM Post #28 |
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*Obtains rhinestone glasses* Hello, possums! Fun. They sound a bit too superior-to-monkeys for my taste, but since they're not perfect I won't complain much. Do they do religion? What do their gender politics tend to be like (do they default to monogamy or promiscuity or what, do they have tertiary sexual characteristics, are there any differences in mental hardwiring?) |
| My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont. | |
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| Dean | Feb 19 2010, 08:37 AM Post #29 |
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In their stone age, they developed many kinds of religions, but since they always had a more positive outlook on life, and didn't find pleasure in restricting the freedom of others, and making others think like them, their religions mostly revolve around a mother goddess, who is like the mother of everyone, but not a higher being then them, taking care of them and the order of nature. Ancestor worship and the image of a powerful, wrathful and omnipotent god, doesn't develop, since they don't think that their ancestors were wiser or different from them, and since most of them aren't afraid of death, since they don't really care about the future and know that they can die at any moment, they don't imagine an afterlife. Their religion doesn't include moral elements, and their image of "criminal" equals to "someone who restricts the freedom of others." After their science started to develop, and they got to know how the world really works, many of them readily adapted it as their new worldview, although some still find comfort in believing in the mother goddess. The concept of order is very important in their culture. (I'm pointing this out, because I'm planning the sapient sugar gliders to be anarchist hunter-gatherers.) Their gender politics are varied by personality. Some people are monogamous, because they like to feel secure in a life-long relationship, many, especially newer generations, like to form a "tribe" of 10-15 individuals in which they interbreed and take care of eachother's children, and there are people who are asexual, or simply don't find interest in a relationship. LGBT relationships are much more accepted than in our world. There are not many differences in mental hardwiring, the main things are the sexual preferences, and that women care more about others and work more, while men are lazier, care more about themselves, and society is less important to them. Edited by Dean, Feb 19 2010, 08:58 AM.
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| Holben | Feb 19 2010, 10:52 AM Post #30 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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If they have such a short pregnancy time, do they even develop noeteny and how could their brains grow so large? |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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