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New Sapients; a strange idea for a book
Topic Started: Feb 13 2010, 08:16 PM (1,068 Views)
Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

We all know about alternate universes, right? Universes that branched off of our own in which anything and everything could have happened.

Suppose that there is an alternate universe in which a Qu-like species discovered Earth. The date of discovery: 5 million years ago. At that time, they discover no civilization on Earth at all. They see one species (australopithecines) that is on the path to civilization and they see numerous other species that could be guided onto the same path.

So this alien race inserts genes that code for sapience in various animal species (australopithecines are not included because they already possess the gene). These animal species are the ancestors of HE's:
  • Asian elephants
  • Gorillas
  • Chimpanzees
  • Parrots
  • Wolves
  • Dolphins
  • Crows


Five million years later, six of the seven species come into civilization (the dolphins don't because they can't make tools. Instead, they develop their own language and become underwater dog soldiers).







First off, what will these sapients look like after their initial helping hand by the Qu-like race?

Second, what might their civilizations be like?

Third, what will their interactions with each other be like?

(note: The Qu-like race only altered creatures in Europe, Africa, and Asia. They didn't bother with the Americas or Australia)[/list]
Edited by Canis Lupis, Feb 13 2010, 11:40 PM.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Like I stated in the first post, dolphins will not progress much as a sapient. Mostly, they will just evolve a language and be used for entertainment purposes. They will fill such jobs as comedians, poets, historians, and possibly priests.






Wolves could use their hands. All they'd have to evolve is some opposable thumbs and an erect (or semi-erect) gait and they'd be set.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

With their backbones, erect gaits would be hard to achieve. Wait, you're making wolfmen?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Basically, yeah. A human-like gait being independently achieved. Twice!


Probably not the most plausible idea in the world. But perhaps the Qu-like race could manipulate the wolves so that they could achieve a humanoid gait. They wouldn't do that for the dolphins because no amount of manipulation would cause them to evolve their own civilization, but wolves would be aided greatly by that manipulation.
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Margaret Pye
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It'd be very difficult to evolve those little round stubby paws into hands. It'd basically require doing an evolutionary U-turn until they got back to unspecialised mammal paws, and only then could they start to specialise for manipulation. I'm not sure why wolves would atavise their paws - it'd make them slower, and wolves rely very heavily on their speed, maybe if they were adapting to a more generalist/omnivore/scavenger niche? Maybe you'd be better starting off with a coyote, or a bear or raccoon? And in any case, it'd take more than seven million years.

Maybe the wolves could use oral manipulation? Adapt their lips into little trunks?

Why are you using wolves, anyway? Wolves aren't unusually intelligent by the standards of predatory mammals. Maybe the Qu just thought wolves were cool?
My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.
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Rhob
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Not to derail this thread, but it made me think about something. Is it possible for a quadrupedal creature to remain quadrupedal but also become sapient and tool-using? How likely do you think this would be? My own tentative conclusion is that a limb could (in theory) be used for both walking/running and manipulating objects.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

Margaret Pye
Feb 15 2010, 04:57 AM
Why are you using wolves, anyway? Wolves aren't unusually intelligent by the standards of predatory mammals.

Maybe the Qu just thought wolves were cool?
Wolves are very intelligent. More so than the felines or domestic dogs, anyway.

Yes, they are very cool.



Rhob, centaurs, trunks and prehensile tails could act as manipulators, and less brain power would have to be used on balance.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Rhob
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Holbenilord
 
Rhob, centaurs, trunks and prehensile tails could act as manipulators, and less brain power would have to be used on balance.


"Centaurs" implies at least three pairs of limbs. I should've used "tetrapod" instead of "quadruped". :P

Trunks and prehensile tails could work, sure, but they don't really address my question, which was about a tetrapod using one or both pairs of its limbs for walking and manipulating objects.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

Well, they could rise up on their hind legs. If they had digigrade front paws, that is.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Rhob
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Holbenilord
Feb 15 2010, 11:19 AM
Well, they could rise up on their hind legs. If they had digigrade front paws, that is.
Sure, but they wouldn't be able to walk very well (if at all) on their hind legs only. And how does the presence or absence of digitigrade front paws affect how well they can stand up on their hind legs?
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

If their front paws are weight bearing, they won't be so easy to adapt unless the weight can be taken off by probably plantigrade back paws.

I'm sure that some lizards do just fine moving up to bipedal, some crocs and other creatures too. ;)
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Margaret Pye
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It's certainly possible for a limb to be used for walking and for manipulating objects - look at most primates. Knuckle-walking is one obvious way to protect the delicate fingers - what else might work?

A quadrupedal sapient might need to carry things in its mouth while walking, but it could sit up to use its hands.
My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

Or rise up on its hind legs.

Delicate fingers could be sheathed- hmmm. Retractible fingers. Let me think about this.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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