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Strange dinosaur adaptations; Who thinks these are plausible?
Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 08:59 AM (8,963 Views)
Margaret Pye
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So, as I said on the introduction thread, I haz a maniraptoran sophont. I've been fleshing out a world for them to live in. And I've been violating the phylogenetic bracket appallingly - in ways that strike me as plausible, but I've been doing it a lot and I wanted some second opinions on the plausibility of some of my critters.

I've put fur on a lot of ornithopods, but that doesn't violate the phylogenetic bracket since Tianyulong. (I was writing furry ornithopods before Tianyulong, mind you - how else would Leaellynasaura have avoided freezing into a little hypsilophodont icypole? Especially since it didn't have growth rings in its bones, and therefore probably didn't hibernate.)

Things I want criticism and suggestions on, mostly dinosaur-related:

Opposable digits. I've been handing out opposable digits like candy, and with blithe disregard for phylogeny (I figured they could evolve repeatedly and independently.) Bipedal browsers get opposable digits with which to hold browse. Most of my small-game hunting coelurosaurs have hands like three-fingered hawk claws. Most of my grazers evolved from browsers, and most of my big-game hunters evolved from small-game hunters.

Direct brooding by a lot of ornithopods (I don't know what the ceratopsians and ankylosaurs do, I'll have to figure that out: I think sauropods are extinct, perhaps very recently as a result of sophont activity, and coelurosaurs are the only surviving theropods). No, there's no fossil evidence for it. But it seems enough of an improvement on the megapode model that I'd assume, given enough time, it could evolve. Is this stupid? (The obvious way to get round "It's too heavy to sit on eggs!" is to have them lie next to the eggs rather than on top.)

Pouches. I've given a lot of random dinosaurs (again, it seemed a simple enough and useful enough adaptation to evolve repeatedly and independently) some kind of skin pouch in which to incubate their eggs. A lot of the bipeds, including the sophonts, have "saddlebags" either side of the ribcage.

Venom. I have a clade of venomous coelurosaurs. In most of them, the venom is quite weak: it's the slashing sharklike teeth that do the real damage, and the vasodilator, anticoagulant venom just makes the wound bleed more so that the prey collapses faster. (Yep, idea stolen direct from Komodo dragon.) I'm thinking about creating some with more powerful venom, and possibly with a fancier venom delivery system than "it's in the spit so it gets all over the teeth." In particular, I was thinking about cheetahs, and I came up with a concept for a Coelophysis-shaped creature adapted for camouflage, stalking and incredible sprinting abilities. Except when it caught up with its prey, instead of wrestling it, it'd bite it once and let go - and the prey would run for another minute or so, then drop dead.

External ears. Yes, on dinosaurs. Specifically, on troodonts. Troodonts seem to have had very sensitive hearing, and asymmetrical ears like owls, so it seems reasonable to give them an external sound-focussing device. And yes, I could just give them an owly facial disc of vaned feathers, but external ears didn't seem that improbable. They aren't complex. They're strategically placed flaps of skin, plus a bit of cartilage stiffening and, if you're feeling fancy, some muscle.

Asymmetrical external ears, obviously. One pointing up, one sideways.

And a non-dinosaurian issue: I want to replace rabbits and hares with bipedal saltorial versions. Do you think I'm better off with wallabies, or with very large jerboas?

(I also want some saltorial-biped mammalian predators and omnivores, most of them under 5 kg: they don't have to be related to the kangabunnies, and I don't know whether they're marsupials or rodents either.)
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Margaret Pye
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I like the quadrupedal therizinosaur bauplan - they'd be great for my steppe and tundra ecosystems. I'm trying to give this world an extensive therizinosaur fauna because they look so hilarious, expecially when they have long eyelashes and are covered in garishly coloured fluff.

Although I don't think they could get bigger than sauropods - I think you're underestimating the sauropod air-sac system. They might even be smaller, because I'm pretty sure they'd have a faster metabolism. And I think the backward pubis would shift the gut backwards, rather than lengthening it.

Yes, I need to do interesting things with azhdarchids. So far, I've come up with:
Small, fairly conservative azhdarchids taking most of the stork/crane-type niches worldwide, retaining good flight skills for escape and dispersal
Really big, fairly conservative azhdarchids in Keshiy. They eat anything, including occasionally people (think "winged grizzly" and you'll have a vague idea). Again, they're still passable flyers, for dispersal and because some of the big social dromaeosaurs are still a threat.
A clade of viviparous/ovoviviparous azhdarchids (this should be theoretically possible, because all known pterosaur eggs are soft-shelled.) Actually, maybe I'll just make them all viviparous... but I'm particularly interested in viviparous marine gliders, because they'd never need to come to land at all. So this clade will fill all the "pelagic aerial" niches, probably including some huge, huge forms, and they'll probably have a go at auk impersonation.

I haven't really thought about pterosaur flightlessness, though I suppose it might make sense for some of the giant terrifying varieties, and there must be some island forms if the sophonts haven't eaten them all. Darren Naish had a nifty cursorial, grass-eating flightless azhdarchid - wonder if he'd let me use it?

I don't know about burrowing coelurosaurs, but I like burrowing ceratopsians, and some of the smaller ornithopods.
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Margaret Pye
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Tigs

Tigs, the other main surviving group of ceratopsians, are much less conservative. They weigh from 5-30 kilograms and are covered in long erectile barbed quills: usually all over their back, sides and tail. The tail is long, powerful and flexible, and its tip usually has extra-long quills sticking out sideways. The quills are loosely attached to the skin, and come out easily. A threatened tig crouches down, gripping the ground with its long digging claws, erects its spines so that it turns into a hemisphere of horrible pointy things, and whacks any enemy that gets too close with its tail. Tigs fear nothing. They're famous in Caenhar Islands folklore for wandering up and nibbling on shara kills before the awesome dromaeosaur has finished eating. Unfortunately, in these days of automobile transport, this attitude gets tigs squashed a lot.

Some tigs have blunt horns used for intraspecific combat, but most of them wrestle with their beaks instead. None have a bony frill. All tigs have a coat of fur between the quills and on the face, legs and belly, length and texture variable. Most tigs have wild, lurid colour schemes. For example, the Skytig (a 20-kg omnivore from the western Caenhar Islands) is mostly longitudinally striped royal blue and cobalt blue, and the last inch of each spike is silver. Not grey: shiny, metallic-looking silver. The ball of long spikes on the tailtip is an equally metallic shade of gold. The large eyes, protected by aquiline brow ridges, are egg-yolk yellow, and the beak is silver.
(Old riddles: Though I dig for worms in the cold dark earth, I carry the sky on my back and my weapon is the sun.
I fear the silent one who comes by night. She fears the one who walks in shadow, with knives on her hands and swords on her feet. What does she fear? Why, a little fallen piece of sky and a little sun.)

Most tigs eat high-energy plant foods, and often also insects, eggs, slow-moving animals and carrion. One branch of the group eats mainly herbs and young grass. Several forest species are specialised nutcrackers, and one tropical variety mainly eats eggs.

Tigs are generally found in monogamous pairs, often with a few adult offspring as helpers. Before you ask, they copulate belly-to-belly :D Males and females are usually hard to tell apart, although in some species the males are even more garish. They nest in burrows - most species build elaborate long-term burrow systems and sleep in them every night - and lay about three eggs a year, which hatch into spiky but otherwise altricial young which are fed by regurgitation.
Edited by Margaret Pye, Feb 22 2010, 05:53 AM.
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Carlos
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Remember that therizinosaur quadrupelalism would only be achieved by knuckle walking, which would make things more interesting actually.

I like the azhdarchid ideas, though I can come up with more. I don't know if seabird analogues would come from them though, considering nyctosaurids were doing fine in the Maastrichian.

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I don't know if a flightless azdharchid pterosaur has been brought up yet, but it'd be cool to see what sort of curious critter the last pterosaurs like Quetzacoatlus could become were they to become flightless.


As of yet, while a cool idea, flightless azhdarchs is becoming kind of overused; I prefer to use flightless dsungaripterids, as they were even more likely to develop flightless forms due to their robust skeleton and several adaptations to terrestriality that indicates that they were better walkers than fliers.

I like the tigs
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

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The Dodo
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The tigs are the dinosaur answer to a porcupine isn't it. Where about to they live?
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Toad of Spades
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What would really be interesting is a flightless pterosaur that becomes the pterosaur equivalent of a penguin.
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Margaret Pye
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Therizinosaur quadrupedalism could only be achieven by knuckle-walking? That'd certainly work, but given how straight their claws were, couldn't they walk just as well on their palms?

Tigs live... pretty much everywhere, I think. Certainly there are skytigs all over the Caenhar Islands, and probably a few other species. And I'm pretty sure there are tigs in Keshiy, although they may be sharing it with marsupial badgery things, small armoured burrowing ceratopsians, armoured marsupial badgery things, and/or armadillos.

The quills are porcupine-based, but I got the idea from some very nice Psittacosaurus fossils that seemed to have porcupine quills on their tails. American porcupines climb trees, so the ecological niche is way off, but the grazing tigs are a lot like Old World porcupines. Most tigs eat more nutritious food though, which makes them more like a badger/skunk/armadillo.

Glad you like them, JohnFaa, I'm quite proud of them myself.

Hey, would it make sense to give them plantigrade forepaws for better leverage?

I'm bad with pterosaurs, and I'd be thrilled if JohnFaa or anyone else wanted to make suggestions. Nyctosaurs? Are those the ones with the antlers?

My plan for the viviparous ones kinda went "Here is a spectacular graceful white gliding thing that never lands. It may be used for Symbolism. I think I'll have one blown onto the Fitch farm in a hurricane, and injured badly enough that they have to shoot it, and ten years later Janet will still burst into tears if you mention it. Not sure what this Symbolises, except that Janet's a bit oversensitive - probably something about beautiful things being fragile. Phylogeny, what phylogeny? It doesn't have teeth or a tail, isn't that enough phylogeny?"

So if someone wants to provide a phylogeny, I'd welcome one :-)

And yep, Toad, whatever the viviparous pterosaurs may be, I'll throw in a few short-winged species that'd rather swim than fly, and maybe some totally flightless ones.
Edited by Margaret Pye, Feb 21 2010, 05:43 AM.
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Margaret Pye
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Cryptosmilids, which need a common name

These specialised hypercarnivorous dromaeosaurs have remained quite conservative, although they're a lot more intelligent than their ancestors. They're all ambush hunters: excellent camouflage and stalking skills, amazing reflexes, great at sprinting and leaping, and pathetic at long-distance running. Apart from the Dakir, they're found in monogamous pairs. They produce quite altricial young, which are protected by extreme parental aggression and, in the smaller species, by nesting in burrows. Hens are twice the size of cocks, and do nearly all the incubation and nest defence while the cock hunts.

Golden liskie
This magnificently ferocious little fluffball is the smallest flightless dinosaur in the Caenhar Islands: hens are four or five kilograms, housecat-sized, and cocks half that. Its long, silky feathers are pale yellow with orange tiger stripes. Its muzzle is shorter and much more pointed than most dromaeosaurs, and the eyes are forward-facing and very large (grey before puberty, brimstone yellow in adult hens, bright orange in cocks.) Unlike its larger relatives it has independently developed opposable thumbs, making its hands look like three-clawed hawk talons: the fingers are long and thin, and the claws very long and sharply hooked. The foot scythe-claws are disproportionately large.

Liskies are specialised hunters of small animals, particularly rodents. They're mostly crepuscular. All prey capture is done with the hands, although the teeth or feet may be used for a coup de grace. The enormous foot claws are for self-defence - liskies are famously aggressive and fearless, and in particular will attack anything that looks like it could be a threat to their nest (although, for extra protection, they nest in burrows - usually something else's burrow, but they'll dig their own if they have to). Liskies can even scare off egg-hunting tigs, being small enough and fast enough to slash the unprotected face.

Rix

The rixen slink through shadowed brush
On swift and silent feet
Their eyes are bright, their teeth are sharp,
Their two-inch claws are fleet.
I may not shoot the noble rix
When she devours my stock.
The conservationists would howl
And hit me with a rock.


Rixen are currently the apex predator across most of the Caenhar Isles. This is not a natural state: icarosapients killed off everything bigger and tougher, although re-introduction of ringhounds is being contemplated.

A rix hen is about 20 kg, and a cock about 10 (it's not an isometric scaling: the hens are a lot brawnier). Both are mostly covered in short blond/ginger/light brown feathers with large dark brown spots. The head is black, with a short crest of vaned feathers that frames the face when erect. The eyes are brimstone yellow.

Rixen are quite generalist, although being strictly diurnal they miss out on the mammals somewhat. Large rodents and the smallest ornithopods (1-10 kilogram weight range) are staples, grabbed with the mouth or between the hands and finished off with the scythe-claws. They're keen bird-catchers, particularly the cocks: they'll leap to grab a bird as it takes off. Rixen will often hunt prey much larger than them, hanging on with the hooked claws on their hands while aiming to slash the jugular or carotid with their scythe-claws. Hens - or worse, pairs hunting co-operatively, as they often do with large prey - are a threat to 100-kg domestic owze.


Janthyn


Janthyn are terrifying.

They're not the largest predator in their ecosystem, or the most powerful. They don't really get teamwork, although occasionally a pair will hunt together. Tarracks, yarleys and ringhounds steal their kills on a regular basis, and sharas will sometimes go one better and eat them.

But they're adaptable, and they're practically invisible, and they're smart. And out of all predators native to the Caenhar Islands, they're the only ones particularly interested in theropod meat. Sharas and tarracks will eat icarosapients opportunistically, and yarleys have been known to, but generally it's only janthyn that make a habit of it.

They're mostly crepuscular, but they like to hunt sleeping prey. And they'll walk calmly into houses at night, if the door's left open, and kill someone so quietly that the rest of the family don't even wake up. Mothers go to sleep cuddling their babies, and wake to find the babies gone...

It isn't hard to understand why they've been exterminated across most of their range, or why several cultures and religions use them as the ultimate symbol of evil. (Obviously, in real life, janthyn are about as evil and malicious as a monkey eating a banana.)

The actual animal behind the legends is a fairly conservative dromaeosaur - basically an overgrown rix with larger eyes, minus the crest. Cocks weigh about 40 kg, hens about 80 (so roughly the same weight as an icarosapient, though much shorter-legged and more muscular). They're cryptically striped and mottled in many different shades of brown, and the eyes are rich yellow.

Janthyn have the same dietary adaptability as rixen. They'll be diurnal, nocturnal or crepuscular, whatever's most profitable. They'll snatch rats or small birds, or they'll slit the throats of armed, vicious vesps bigger than they are or 300-kilogram sunbulls. They don't prefer theropod meat - it's just that, being so adaptable, they'll eat whatever's around, while other large predators have more specialised tastes. (Well, except tarracks, which eat anything organic except leaves or bark. But tarracks aren't very good at being predators.)

Janthyn don't burrow. They nest on the ground in thick vegetation. Eggs and chicks are protected by camouflage and by parental aggression.

Shara

Sharas are the dominant hypercarnivore of the Caenhar Islands. Males are well over 100 kg, and females around 200. They're stockier and more powerful than janthyn. They have short velvety feathers mottled in dull greens and browns, emerald green eyes, and strikingly fluffy tails.

Sharas are most common in forests, although they'll also inhabit grasslands. They're much more specialised than janthyn or rixen, attacking mainly large ornithopods (sun-kye and whitbuck are favourites), gougers and the occasional therizinosaur.

Dakir

Does not live in the Caenhar Islands, but is clearly related to the rest, and demands to be mentioned because it is awesome.

The chilly Keshiyan prairies are where humanity began. As humans gradually developed tool use and civilization, the Keshiyan wildlife had time to gradually adapt. Across the rest of the world, humans exterminated the largest and most magnificent creatures. Keshiy's lost a lot of wildlife, but it still has ariu, vashke, tsasaka, leehe... and dakirs, the largest surviving land predator.

Dakirs are much less drastic in their sexual dimorphism than other cryptosmilids: the females are about 450 kg, the males over 300. Unlike most of their relatives, they're usually social. Most pairs have several adult offspring sharing their territory and helping with hunting and nesting.

Dakirs are extremely thickset and muscular, with plain blonde feathers, brown eyes and a long downy crest. They have relatively small, pointed heads and very weak jaws for a cryptosmilid: their teeth are for eating, not for killing. Their feet have impressive foot-long scythe-claws, but the main weapons are on their hands. The first and third fingers of each hand have heavy, hooked grasping claws, and the middle fingers have, effectively, keratin machetes. Dakir packs attack large, slow, often well-armed prey from ambush, wrestling it to the ground and slashing at the neck or abdomen.

Surprisingly, dakirs are more r-selected than smaller cryptosmilids. A janthyn or shara lays two or three eggs every couple of years. Dakirs have five or six eggs in a clutch, and while they're not fully grown till the age of five or so, the larger packs will lay another clutch well before the last set of young are independent. This actually makes sense - dakirs, since they attack mainly large, dangerous prey, frequently die young in hunting accidents.

Naturally, the mighty Keshiyan Empire has always used a dakir as its emblem.
Edited by Margaret Pye, Mar 28 2010, 05:22 AM.
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Carlos
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Therizinosaur quadrupedalism could only be achieven by knuckle-walking? That'd certainly work, but given how straight their claws were, couldn't they walk just as well on their palms?


Therizinosaurs stil had fingers, and since the palm couldn't pronate nor turn upwards I supposed they'd be limited to knuckle walking. It has been suggested mesozoic therizinos could indeed knuckle walk, but it is still controversial. Eventually, knuckle walking therizinosaurs would loose the claws and become fully quadrupedal.

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I'm bad with pterosaurs, and I'd be thrilled if JohnFaa or anyone else wanted to make suggestions. Nyctosaurs? Are those the ones with the antlers?


Yep; some include them under Pteranodontidae, but in any case by the late Cretaceous the truly big pteranodontians like Pteranodon were gone and only the smaller, finger less nyctosaurids remained. Of course, nothing stops the evolution of a huge, Pteranodon sized nyctosaurid...
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

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Margaret Pye
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Oh... yeah... maniraptor wrists don't bend backwards. Sorry, not one of my brighter moments there :-).
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Margaret Pye
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Some Vistland miniherbivores

Springer

This very common rodent looks rather like a foot-tall wallaby, with a flatter face and longer, more flexible bushy tail. It has large brown eyes, large round ears, and a cryptic brown-and-black mottled colour scheme. Springers move in a normal quadrupedal way when walking slowly, but when frightened (which is often) they bounce away on their long hind legs and huge feet: they're incredibly fast, and they've been known to leap more than three metres. They'll often run away in zigzags, changing direction with each leap, or suddenly freeze and disappear in the vegetation.

Outside the breeding season, springers are solitary or found in small herds. They congregate into larger herds in the late dry season/early monsoon, and the males fight spectacular acrobatic kickboxing matches for dominance. There is no pair-bond - males and females seperate immediately after mating.

A healthy female may have three or four litters, of up to 10 altricial young each, per year. Females born early in the season will be breeding themselves by the end of the season, if they're well fed. Young are born in a simple burrow lined with fur, and the mother visits to feed and clean them at dawn and dusk. Adult springers don't sleep in burrows, preferring to hide in long grass or scrub.

Springers are mostly active at dawn and dusk or on moonlit nights, although they'll often feed in daylight. They eat mostly herbs and juicy young grass, and will browse low bushes.

Coney

Coneys are closely related to springers and share a similar bauplan, but stockier with less powerful hindlegs, and half the size. The bushy tail is a striking pure white, and when frightened they point it straight up. The females are highly social and build elaborate communal burrows. Unlike springers, coneys usually lurk underground when they're not feeding.

Some coney families are small, but many warrens contain over 100 adult females, all related. They will nurse each others' young, and take turns watching out for predators while the others graze. Adult males are solitary and aggressive, and much larger than the females. Small warrens will only contain one male at a time, although he'll often be challenged and replaced. The big warrens may contain several males who avoid each other most of the time.

Coneys mostly eat herbs and flowers, and dig up the occasional root.

Rock coney

Quite similar in appearence to a springer, with longer front legs, bigger feet and larger, more forward-pointing eyes. Rock coneys inhabit mountains, cliffs and large piles of boulders, and are known for their ability to bound up what look like sheer cliff faces.

They're mainly diurnal. They live in long-term groups of one male, one to four females, and various offspring, and are remarkably K-selected for rodents (maximum of about four young per female per year, and they live to be ten or fifteen.)

Rock coneys are famous for making hay. Towards the end of the growing season, they'll pluck bunches of grass, leave it in the sun to dry, and then store it underground as supplies for the dry season. They also collect seeds.

Various quenell

Quenell are Vistland's smallest ornithischians, mostly weighing about five kilograms. The greatest diversity is found in forests, but the striped quenell will live in scrub or riverside growth and the gold quenell is happy in long grass.

All quenell are a fairly standard "hypsilophodont" shape, although more delicate-looking than the larger forms. They have very large eyes, sharp faces with small narrow beaks (except the nutkin, which has a powerful curved beak like a macaw) and thick soft fur. Their most striking feature is the long grasping fingers and opposable thumb on each hand, which they use to pluck and gather food.

Apart from the aberrant nutkin, quenell are highly selective herbivores. They browse the softest and most nutritious young leaves, graze for herbs and flowers, and eat any available fruit. They'll occasionally eat a snail or a slow-moving frog or lizard: growing chicks are rather omnivorous.

Quenell form long-term monogamous pairs which defend territories: they have a better sense of smell than most dinosaurs, and mark their territories by rubbing a gland under their chins over rocks or plants. Males and females are similar in size, but the males are more brightly coloured and more aggressive. Extra-pair fertilisation is very common, and females will often lay eggs in the wrong nest (usually, but not always, a nest belonging to a male they've previously mated with.) Both sexes directly incubate a clutch of up to twenty eggs, and lead the very precocial young.

Species found in Vistland:

The corona quenell is found only in the last remnants of primary forest: it's much more common over the border in Ferrland. It's a plain, mottled brown all over, with pale eyes. Males can be recognised by their impressive bouffant mane round the shoulders.

The fanged quenell is found in woodlands. It's blond with light pale green eyes. Males have two sharp inch-long tusks in the upper jaw, projecting down beside the lower beak.

The pink quenell is found in swamps. It has dark brown, mottled fur and black eyes. Males have a bright pink chest and belly, which is hidden when they lie down.

The striped quenell is found in open woodlands and scrub. Both sexes look very much the same, longitudinally striped from beak to tailtip in neat lines of light and dark brown.

The gold quenell is found in open country, hiding in long grass. It has blond fur with darker vertical stripes, and bright yellow eyes. Males have a bright yellow chest and belly, which is hidden when they lie down.

The nutkin is an aberrant variation: it eats some leaves and fruit, but it lives mainly off nuts. Nutkins are found only in mature rainforests, scampering around on the forest floor. They aren't dramatically different in appearence from other quenell, but they have much larger heads and powerful parrot-like beaks. Their fur is dark red and glossy.

Dissecting a nutkin reveals a much larger brain than other quenell species. This is probably for remembering where it hid all its buried nut hoards.

Flametig

These spiky little ceratopsians trundle slowly and peacefully across the savannah, nibbling on herbs and digging up tubers with their long front claws. They're smaller than the omnivorous skytigs, not much over 10 kg, and have noticeably wider and less pointed beaks, for grazing.

A flametig's quills are all bright red at the base, fading through shades of orange to bright yellow at the tip. Its face and beak are glossy black, and its eyes blood red.
Edited by Margaret Pye, Mar 13 2010, 02:42 AM.
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The Dodo
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So these are rodents, not multituberculates or anything.
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Margaret Pye
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Yep, definitely a rodent. Or something very similar to a rodent - there may be some fine details of bone structure that aren't right :-) . There are a lot of metatherians and assorted non-therians around the place, but multituberculates are extinct.
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Tiina Aumala I am not, but here are some pics.
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Adveho in me Lucifero
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Looks decent, though the fingers being exactly pincer like all the time...
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Margaret Pye
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Adult
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Sorry, I don't quite understand - what's wrong?
My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.
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