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Venus (A habitable planet with life); The obvious best chance of finding E.T.
Topic Started: Feb 8 2010, 02:04 PM (2,366 Views)
Googolbyte
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___I am surprised that life on Venus has not been considered on this forum for Extraterrestrial life especially considering the fact that aerial ecosystems have been discussed on this forum. Consider these facts;

___In many ways Venus is the hell planet. Results of spacecraft investigation of the surface and atmosphere of Venus are summarized by Bougher, Hunten, and Phillips [ 19971:
______#Surface temperature 735K: lead, tin, and zinc melt at surface, with hot spots with temperatures in excess of 975 K
______#Atmospheric pressure 96 Bar (1300 PSI); similar to pressure at a depth of a kilometer under the ocean
______#The surface is cloud covered; little or no solar energy
______#Poisonous atmosphere of primarily carbon dioxide, with nitrogen and clouds of sulphuric acid droplets.

___However, viewed in a different way, the problem with Venus is merely that the ground level is too far below the one atmosphere level. At cloud top level, Venus is the paradise planet. As shown in figure 2, at an altitude slightly above fifty km above the surface, the atmospheric pressure is equal to the Earth surface atmospheric pressure of I Bar. At this level, the environment of Venus is benign.
______#above the clouds, there is abundant solar energy
______#temperature is in the habitable "liquid water" range of 0-5 C
______#atmosphere contains the primary volatiles required for life (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Sulfur)
______#Gravity is 90% of the gravity at the surface of Earth.

___While the atmosphere contains droplets of sulfuric acid, technology to avoid acid corrosion are well known, and have been used by chemists for centuries.

___In short, the atmosphere of Venus is most earthlike environment in the solar system. Although humans cannot breathe the atmosphere, pressure vessels are not required to maintain one atmosphere of habitat pressure, and pressure suits are not required for humans outside the habitat.

___Instead if we assume that Venus was originally earth-like (at the surface) and slowly transitioned to Venus' current form allowing the life to take to the sky permanently. This wouldn't be difficult as hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen are all lifting gases on Venus which are also biologically common. The only difficulty would be locating a source of heavier elements such as silicon, iron and phosphorous. Any suggestions?

Note: contains extracts from http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20030022668_2003025525.pdf
Edited by Googolbyte, Feb 8 2010, 02:06 PM.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Next time, try not to quadruple post. ;)
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sam999
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Maybe flyers would evolve to lay their eggs on one of the sky-reafs and let the young live there until they could fly for themselves.
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Googolbyte
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sam999
Feb 10 2010, 02:34 PM
Maybe flyers would evolve to lay their eggs on one of the sky-reafs and let the young live there until they could fly for themselves.
Or who knows maybe the eggs can fly themselves or at least float.

and sorry for quadruple posting
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Perfectly alright. Just letting you know.


Anyway, you do present some pretty valid arguments for life on Venus. Though I must say I disagree with life utilizing chlorine gas in some way. Chlorine is an extremely toxic gas to carbon-based life. How could a carbon-based utilize chlorine gas without commiting suicide?


True, it could be a silicon-based creature. But again, I doubt this. Silicon, while in the same elemental group as carbon, is not nearly as versatile as carbon is. It does not have the ability to bond with itself, which is what makes carbon such good biological base. Silicon based life would probably only arise through manufacturing it. Think nanotech.
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Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

Quote:
 
Chlorine is an extremely toxic gas to carbon-based life.

Wasn't there a time where they said the same about oxygen?
Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus!

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food for thought
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

They didn't say that. It was true.

Around 800 million years ago (I think that's the right date), cyanobacteria was just beginning to produce oxygen. The other bacteria were not used to oxygen and it was like a poison for them. Over millions of years, bacteria slowly became used to the oxygen and began to use it to metabolize.





Oh wait, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to convince me that the same could work with chlorine in Venus's atmosphere. Well, that is true. And likely. Thanks.
Edited by Canis Lupis, Feb 10 2010, 04:34 PM.
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Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

Quote:
 
Well, that is true. And likely. Thanks.

;)

The question now is, can chlorine serve the same function as oxygen in Venusian metabolism? What obstacles will chlorine pose that will have to be overcome for chlorine breathers to take off?
Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus!

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food for thought
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ATEK Azul
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I can see organic disinfectants and salts being produced by these organisms as either byproducts of Chlorine based metabolisms or perhaps they make them through a type of Chlorine based photo/thermalsynthesis?
Edited by ATEK Azul, Feb 10 2010, 04:53 PM.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Hmmm. Well, oxygen has the ability to bond with two hydrogens to create dihydrogen monoxide (aka water). Not sure what chlorine could bond to to produce something similar. Any chemists within our mists?







Salt could be a byproduc. But you'd need sodium to produce salt.
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Googolbyte
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Canis Lupis
Feb 10 2010, 05:09 PM
Hmmm. Well, oxygen has the ability to bond with two hydrogens to create dihydrogen monoxide (aka water). Not sure what chlorine could bond to to produce something similar. Any chemists within our mists?







Salt could be a byproduc. But you'd need sodium to produce salt.
dihydrogen monoxide!! If a professional chemist called it that he would have to go into hiding out of embarrassment.
Anyways, Oxygen is used in biology for;

producing hydrogen bonding (chlorine isn't electronegative enough for this)

transporting hydrogen in the form of water (chlorine becomes hydrochloric acid when doing this, it is a possible but unlikely use)

and of course, oxygen is used to burn things (now here is where chlorine is useful as it is a powerful oxidant and can be used as an alternative in burning/respiration it use can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdFnz9rnMCU although I am unsure of it's exact effect on larger hydrocarbons)
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Well, dihydrogen monoxide is the technical name for it. It's like saying Canis lupis instead of wolf. They're the same thing, just that one is technically correct.
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Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

They're both technically correct, it's just that one is more structurally descriptive. ;)

I'm going to see if I can dig up my World-Building book and see what it says about Chlorine as a volatile.
Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus!

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food for thought
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Holben
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Canis Lupis
Feb 11 2010, 04:08 PM
Well, dihydrogen monoxide is the technical name for it. It's like saying Canis lupis instead of wolf. They're the same thing, just that one is technically correct.
Actually, lupus is latin second declension nominative singular, so follows servus and goeslupus
lupe
lupum
etc.

Lupus.


If you have water, hydrolysis will kill your bugs. You've got sulphuric acid clouds!
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Googolbyte
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Holbenilord
Feb 12 2010, 11:13 AM
Canis Lupis
Feb 11 2010, 04:08 PM
Well, dihydrogen monoxide is the technical name for it. It's like saying Canis lupis instead of wolf. They're the same thing, just that one is technically correct.
Actually, lupus is latin second declension nominative singular, so follows servus and goeslupus
lupe
lupum
etc.

Lupus.


If you have water, hydrolysis will kill your bugs. You've got sulphuric acid clouds!
The technical term for water is WATER or H2O. and even if you do want to be "scientific" it would just be hydrogen oxide. This is the correct nomenclature, example of this include H2S is hydrogen sulphide and Li2O is Lithium Oxide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax
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Holben
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Yeah, i heard about that in an unofficial journal. :P

H2O is the technical name, but we use 'water' as whatever.

H2SO4 is sulphuric acid, one of our venusian friends.

C6H12O6 is glucose. Will the bugs use it for energy, and ATP?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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