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Gliese 581 d (aka Cuz; a real planet for speculation
Topic Started: Jan 26 2010, 01:25 PM (3,959 Views)
Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581_d



Here in "The Habitable Zone" forum, we mostly make fictional worlds to evolve life for. The only exceptions I've seen are Europa and Mars.

But in 2007, a team of Chilean scientists headed by Stephen Udry discovered a world that could actually support life outside of our solar system.

Gliese 581 d is the fourth planet orbiting the red dwarf Gliese 581.

For ease of typing, let's come up with a nickname for Gliese 581 and it's system. Any ideas?

I'm going to make this an open project. Is anyone able to make worlds in Celestia willing to create Gliese 581 d? I know it is already on Celestia, but I would like to be able to see a hypothetical surface from space.

This world, according to Stephen Udry and a lot of other scientists, is likely an ocean planet with a few sparse areas of land. So whoever does this in Celestia needs to take that into account.




Now let's speculate!

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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Well, Caerus, from our limited understanding (we'll know more when we send a probe to it) has a very thick atmosphere. Possibly thicker than on Venus.

On Venus, you can surely see the Sun's effects, but you can't really see the Sun very well (this has been confirmed by probes sent to it back in the 20th century).

So with a much thicker atmosphere on Caerus than on Venus, you could barely make out anything in space. The Aunphu may not know about anything about their solar system or the universe until man comes along and shows it to them.

There will undoubtedly be an Aunphu individual who comes up with the idea that Caerus orbits Udry and that there are other worlds out there. But there would be no way to confim it. Since the Aunphu would lack any kind of metal to make telescopes and since telescopes could not be achieved through standard genetic engineering, they would not know of the rest of the universe except from a purely imaginary standpoint.



The Aunphu's technological development would largely remain static. Not many technological advances would arise until Humans come along. Though, of course, selective breeding could potentially create some tools we may never have thought of.

Or perhaps they could create a weaponized version of taxodermy. They could take bits and pieces of dead "animals" and weave them together with string they get from the ephiphlas. You could potentially get a real sword-fish. And if they could figure out how to sew a jet propulsion system onto these sword-fish (animals will undoubtedly evolve some form of jet propulsion to escape predation in the atmosphere), you could get a biological version of a gun.



They may not be able to develop a true and advanced understanding of DNA. But neither did Gregor Mendel. He discovered the basic framework and how traits are passed from generation to generation. This would undoubtedly be helpful to the tool-makers (Aunphu who make tools either through "taxodermy" or selective breeding (though more so to the latter)).




While it is true that sharks don't have claws, birds do. The fish-eating pterodactyls did. Basically, any flying creature that eats fish (or "fish" in the case of the Aunphu and related species) will possess claws or a skewer if they dive (in a way, a bird beak could be considered a highly advanced skewer).



Yes, manipulatory limbs could begin to evolve as a form of child carrying or of mating claspers. But further development would arise from catching "fish" and flying creatures. Even further development would arise with the increase of intelligence.




You can actually make quite a few tools from sargassum. Bows, arrows, spears, fruit collecters, fire starters, all sorts of tools. True, they won't be advanced by our standards. But you can still create a wide variety.




That is true about the genetic engineering thing.

And yes, Human settlement would be a massive uplift. If they can survive man's diseases (which man would probably eliminate before they stepped (or swam) onto the surface of Caerus).
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T.Neo
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Well, Caerus, from our limited understanding (we'll know more when we send a probe to it) has a very thick atmosphere. Possibly thicker than on Venus.


If the atmosphere is thicker then on Venus, the planet will be a runaway greenhouse at hundreds of degrees. Hopefully, it will be thin enough (although still thick by our standards) to allow liquid water and thus life.

And the atmosphere isn't what blocks out the sun on Venus. It's actually the global cloud cover, which could be plausible for Gliese 581d.

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(animals will undoubtedly evolve some form of jet propulsion to escape predation in the atmosphere), you could get a biological version of a gun.


A dead jet propulsion unit would be as useful as a dead length of intestine as a "gun".

I can see jet propulsion more for water propulsion- even in the thick atmosphere, biological jet propulsion is rather difficult to achieve.

I agree that "taxidermy" would be somewhat useful. In fact, it's pretty common in Humans... leather, bone tools, sinew...

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While it is true that sharks don't have claws, birds do. The fish-eating pterodactyls did. Basically, any flying creature that eats fish (or "fish" in the case of the Aunphu and related species) will possess claws or a skewer if they dive (in a way, a bird beak could be considered a highly advanced skewer).


Yes, but pterosaurs (probably) didn't use their claws... they used their beaks. And a lot of fish eating birds use their beaks.

A beak isn't used as a skewer either... it's used more as a skimmer.

I think they would have beak or tooth like structures, but not claws. Evolving claws from their limbs wouldn't make sense when they have a toothy mouth to catch prey anyway.

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But further development would arise from catching "fish" and flying creatures. Even further development would arise with the increase of intelligence.


But they'd have their jaws. Carrying food with the claspers is a different matter though.

Btw, intelligence doesn't foster the evolution of better manipulators. Better manipulators foster the evolution of intelligence.

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Bows, arrows, spears, fruit collecters, fire starters


Bow string, maybe. A familiar bow would be a bit illogical anyway for a creature with a nonhuman body plan.

Arrows, again, not possible, like bow bodies. Due to the fact that sargassum is flippy and not stiff.

Fruit collectors for what? A basket maybe, to be held in the claspers? I see fish as more abundant then fruit here, if fruit exists at all.

And where are you going to start a fire in the middle of the ocean?

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If they can survive man's diseases


I doubt viruses would be a problem. Viruses have trouble going from one species to another, let alone one life-kingdom to another.

Bacteria maybe. But it must also be remembered that the biochemistry might not allow bacterial infection- they could for example have different chirality.

Even then they wouldn't be dying off like native americans. They'd be dying off from the germs that rot meat or wood...
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Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

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And a lot of fish eating birds use their beaks.

A noteworthy exception being the bald eagle.

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A familiar bow would be a bit illogical anyway for a creature with a nonhuman body plan.

I agree. If they're descended from flying piscavores then even a spear might be unwieldy.

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Due to the fact that sargassum is flippy and not stiff.

Perhaps sargassum on this planet stiffens as it dies? I don't know, just brainstorming.

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And where are you going to start a fire in the middle of the ocean?

Why would you want to start one any way? Is there any evolutionary pressure for these critters to master fire?

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I doubt viruses would be a problem. Viruses have trouble going from one species to another, let alone one life-kingdom to another.

I once tried to explain this point to my wife's family, who just looked at me like I was speaking Spanish...
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food for thought
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Viruses couldn't but bacteria could, very easily. Think about it likes this, if the chemistry is different it could still use the same chemicals, if a bacteria gets in and starts feeding on one chemical, it's waste could be poisonous to the creature. Without an immunity ready to fight this thing, a pandemic could pretty easily arise.
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T.Neo
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Why would that chemical be usable, or nontoxic even, to the bacteria?
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

I wasn't talking about a Caeran version of sargassum. I was using an analogy. Humans can make a lot of tools from trees. That's what I was talking about. Not the Aunphu using bows, arrows, spears, or torches.




Ever read War of the Worlds? The Earth bacteria does not infect the Martians. Rather, it eats them. This would most likely be the reaction between Human bacterial diseases and the Aunphu. Bacteria can evolve rather rapidly and, in the span of fifty years, they could potentially evolve to deal with the Caeran biochemistry. Which would be a real problem for native lifeforms. Sterile conditions would be necessary in the Human colonies.

Or the bacteria would not be a problem.





And who says that Caeran "birds" are jawed? Perhaps they have a mouth lined with radula-like teeth. Or maybe they launch a harpoon-shaped tongue at their prey and pull it back into their mouth. I haven't worked it out yet. But when I do, I'll post it.





Global cloud cover. That's what it is. Sorry about that.

Yes, there would most likely be wide cloud cover on a water world like Caerus.





Perhaps the Aunphu could fill the jet propulsion unit with air, then seal it. They could then take a quill from a pufferfish-like creature and poke the jet propulsion unit, causing it to launch.

It wouldn't be the most accurate weapon, but it would work most likely.


Though what would be more likely would be to take a vine from the ephiphlas and transplant some sort of claw at the end (make sure you carve a notch in it). Then, transplant a claw onto the posterior of the sword-fish and carve a matching notch into it. Fit the claw of the sword-fish into the notch on the vine, have a partner pull the clawed end of the vine back, and let go. The sword-fish will fly through the air and, if you aim it right, it will strike your opponent.
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Holben
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Massive posts hurt my head.

As ye said, civilisation without manipulators is, according to our knowlkedge, impossible.

Maybe they could fire the pufferfish?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Perhaps. But I think firing a "swordfish" would produce a lot more damage than a "pufferfish".
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T.Neo
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They might not have jaws like vertebrate jaws, but they'd probably have mandibles of some kind.

As for pressurising a jet propulsion unit, it probably won't work. With a breath you won't get the pressure high enough to shoot the projectile far. See some of the chamber pressures in firearms. ;)

And the thicker air will not make a difference- it's the differential pressure that counts.

It's also probably quite a sparse planet so the biodiversity would be low.

Even if bacteria could "feed" on Glieshan organisms (there are still issues like chirality), it probably won't be disease bacteria- the humble bacteria living on human skin would do fine.

However it probably doesn't count for much, since the latest data I can find implies that Gliese 581d isn't even active enough to sustain plate tectonics. :(
Edited by T.Neo, Feb 6 2010, 10:36 AM.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

You know, I never could quite understand it. Why is plate tectonics necessary for life? Does it have to do with the magnetosphere?



Yes, they would most likely have mandibles. Perhaps they'd have something akin to maxillapeds in Earth arthropods?



So in that case, a slingshot method might work best.



Yes, it could be sparse. But it could also be rich in life. Especially in the photic zone. Perhaps, if Caerus has plate tectonics, there could be vast continental sized reefs about a mile below the surface.



Yeah, it would not take some horrible disease to eat Caeran life (if bacteria can). Like you said, simple skin bacteria could do it.

Though I'm beginning to cast doubt on the theory that Terran bacteria could cause significant harm to Caeran life.
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The general idea behind tectonic plates is A it helps create a Carbon Cycle, and B it is a force behind evolution. It seperates populations and brings them back together.

What exactly are your doubts behind the bacteria?
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Holben
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No tectonics, the crust erodes into one flat ocean floor which is cold. No gases are released into the air/water, and those chemicals down in the mantle never come up. It is colder on the surface, etc. etc.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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T.Neo
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Plate tectonics isn't THAT necessary for life, IMO.

For example, Venus has pretty tall structures. Volcanism is the driving force in craton development, not plate tectonics. All you need for a magnetic field is a core of electrically conductive fluid spinning fast enough.

The carbon cycle is dealt with by coal and limestone.

But Gliese 581 is different. It is NOT a terrestrial planet like those we know in our system- it has an ocean hundreds of kilometers thick, with an ice allotrope mantle thousands of kilometers thick. No silicate crust breaks the surface.

This is why abundant volcanic activity is required for life. With no land and no seafloor (or volcanic vents in the euphotic zone) there would be very, very few nutrients in the ocean. Which means complex life will either be simple and rare, or nonexistant.

I think they might have fin-derived mandibles. But not leg derived mandibles... fins are more logical to evolve in a world ocean then legs.

Damn, I wish we had the capability to detect earthlike planets in the HZ. The closest thing we have is the possibility of moons around tepid jovians but they are still speculation at this point. :(




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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

So basically, lack of plate tectonics could lead to lack of diversity because minerals wouldn't be diluted throughout the thick ocean. But volcanism, from what I gather, can also dilute a large amount of minerals in the water. So as long as the core is still active, there could still be some biodiversity in ocean, and thus in the air.



Yep. Fin derived mandibles do seem to be better for Caerans to evolve.



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T.Neo
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Well, that's what I was saying. I was relying on violent tidally-induced volcanic activity to dilute minerals into the water. But since Gliese 581d doesn't recieve even enough tidal heating to drive plate tectonics, let alone violent volcanic activity, the water would be very very mineral poor.
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