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| Gliese 581 d (aka Cuz; a real planet for speculation | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 26 2010, 01:25 PM (3,960 Views) | |
| Canis Lupis | Jan 26 2010, 01:25 PM Post #1 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_581_d Here in "The Habitable Zone" forum, we mostly make fictional worlds to evolve life for. The only exceptions I've seen are Europa and Mars. But in 2007, a team of Chilean scientists headed by Stephen Udry discovered a world that could actually support life outside of our solar system. Gliese 581 d is the fourth planet orbiting the red dwarf Gliese 581. For ease of typing, let's come up with a nickname for Gliese 581 and it's system. Any ideas? I'm going to make this an open project. Is anyone able to make worlds in Celestia willing to create Gliese 581 d? I know it is already on Celestia, but I would like to be able to see a hypothetical surface from space. This world, according to Stephen Udry and a lot of other scientists, is likely an ocean planet with a few sparse areas of land. So whoever does this in Celestia needs to take that into account. Now let's speculate! |
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| Canis Lupis | Jan 31 2010, 01:50 PM Post #61 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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In fact, some scientists think that it originally formed in a Neptunian range (basically, the zone where a Neptune-like world would most likely form (varies with star size)). They think that it migrated inward towards Udrey until its orbit stabilized in Udrey's habitable zone. |
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| Holben | Jan 31 2010, 03:55 PM Post #62 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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How would sapience manifest itself without manipulation? |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Canis Lupis | Jan 31 2010, 04:13 PM Post #63 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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It arose on Earth without manipulation. So why not on Caerus? |
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| T.Neo | Feb 1 2010, 09:14 AM Post #64 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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First of all, it's sapience. Even cockroaches have a form of "sentience". Secondly, since when did human ancestors lack manipulators? I can imagine a sophont without manipulators, though. It just wouldn't have much or any tool use. |
| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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| Empyreon | Feb 1 2010, 11:09 AM Post #65 |
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Are you plausible?
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I'm having a hard time finding the post that prompted your reminder...
I believe they're referring to genetic manipulation. Yet another example where omitting words inhibits clarity... And if we're going to start claiming that sapience can't come about without genetic manipulation we'd better be careful. There are those around here who might see that as "creationism". ![]()
I've always had a hard time seeing a bird's beak as a manipulator, but they never cease to surprise me with their abilities. Guess that's just another example of humanocentrism, right? |
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Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
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| Canis Lupis | Feb 1 2010, 05:47 PM Post #66 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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It's impossible for sapience to arise without any manipulators. Sure, they could develop a language. But a civilization without manipulators? That's kind of impossible. Anyway, my scanner is broken. Again. So what I'll do is just post a description of the creature, called a Glieshan by humans. Though sometimes humans call them by their name for themselves: the Aunphu (pronounced ah-oo-na-foo). |
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| T.Neo | Feb 2 2010, 08:14 AM Post #67 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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See quote.
Indeed.
A bird's beak is a manipulator, but not one as dexterous as hands, etc. They also only have one, not two or more (imagine how easy four hands would make things...) so what they can do with it is limited. But a bird with one manipulator is overall superior to a shark with no manipulators. Ok, well, a Caerian flish with no manipulators. I'm not trying to take a stupid Rare-Earth type argument here, but IMO, Gliese 581d doesn't have the right environment to evolve manipulator-able sapients.
I can chop the arms off of a human, and they'll still be sapient. ![]()
Even if they did have pretty dexterous manipulators, what is there to base a civilisation on? Sure, a few bits of floating seaweed, some "fish" and flying animals. But no metals, very little, if anything, with which to craft tools, no ability to build structures or settlements, etc etc. They could however have a very advanced "oral" culture and history. And it also does not preclude the existence of art, in the form of music. Edited by T.Neo, Feb 2 2010, 08:14 AM.
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| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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| Empyreon | Feb 3 2010, 02:55 PM Post #68 |
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Are you plausible?
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Ah, I see it now. I thought it would be somewhere after your previous post, since you felt the need to point it out.
I agree, and it makes me think of how a sapient would evolve without manipulators. Would it even happen? What are the evolutionary pressures that impel intelligence? I'd always thought the ability to directly manipulate one's surroundings would be a factor, but if the possibility of manipulators is removed then what are some other things that can bring about that "oral" culture independent of hands and planetary resources? |
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Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
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| Canis Lupis | Feb 3 2010, 05:49 PM Post #69 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Who says a Caerian sapient has to lack manipulators? Caerus has a thicker atmosphere than Earth, making flight a lot easier evolutionarily. Perhaps the Aunphu's ancestor was a hexapod (or maybe an octopod). With the addition of an air bladder (similar to a fish's swim bladder), flight would be very easy, especially if the limbs were flattened. So all the Aunphu's ancestor would have to do is evolve the front pair and the back pair of wings into larger flying surfaces. The middle pair could then evolve into a pair of manipulators. As for the lack of material on Caerus, I will concede that. The Aunphu will obviously not be more advanced than we are. In fact, the only way they could ever become as advanced as us would be if: 1. we helped them along by trading valuable metals with them 2. if they became masters of genetic engineering. Think about it: the only rich resources Caerus would most likely have would be life. When no other materials exist, life is your best material. The floating islands (called ephiphlas by Humans or edtu (pronounced "ee-da-too") by the Aunphu) would be great bases for tools. You could start off farming these things and chop materials off (with claws, which would be beneficial to a "fish"-eater) to make homes or paper. Further down the line, once the Aunphu have a good understanding of genetics, they could engineer the ephiphlas to grow massive city-like structures. They won't discover space travel unless we (or some other race) introduces it to them. So they may continue to concede to false understandings (like Caerus being the center of the universe with Udrey being swallowed by some large creature every day when the sun goes down). |
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| Empyreon | Feb 3 2010, 08:45 PM Post #70 |
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Are you plausible?
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An interesting direction for things to take: "stone age" technology eventually giving way to husbandry and eventually direct genetic engineering. |
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Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
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| Xenophile | Feb 3 2010, 08:49 PM Post #71 |
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Formerly known as alienboy.
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How could they gain an understanding of gentics without first having fire metals or both? Also how would they be able to manipulate genes without technology? These are some problems I have encountered in my own projects. |
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| Empyreon | Feb 3 2010, 08:58 PM Post #72 |
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Are you plausible?
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Well, in a sense breeding animals is a form of genetic manipulation. It's not nearly as powerful as the type we're familiar with today, but from a certain point of view, animal husbandry is a form of genetic control. When Canis Lupis was talking about using claws, and farming the ephiphlas with claws, I had visions in my head of breeding animals to do it for you instead of having to do the work yourself. |
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Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
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| Xenophile | Feb 3 2010, 09:03 PM Post #73 |
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Formerly known as alienboy.
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Still, any creature that develops sapience will never be able to quilify as an intelligent species capable of interstellar communication by definition of the Drake equation unless it can work metals or develop a form of advanced genetic manipulation. |
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| Vultur-10 | Feb 4 2010, 02:21 AM Post #74 |
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Consider what we've done with dogs with ... what? Twenty, thirty thousand years of selective breeding? What could thirty million years of selective breeding accomplish? --- No land doesn't rule out 'islands' of a sort. Super-lilypads (huge floating organisms big enough to support 'island' ecosystems) could exist. |
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| T.Neo | Feb 4 2010, 12:10 PM Post #75 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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Yes, but in a world-ocean there isn't much to manipulate. Even the ephiphlas would be a limited environment.
This could definitely make sense, if the original use of the limbs was to carry the young, or even as mating claspers.
We'd need to trade more then metal with them, we'd need to trade technology, and the knowledge of how to maintain and use it. I can see human colonisation being a form of upliftment to the Aunphu.
Genetic engineering can give you food animals and assistants (I've heard some remarkable stories of hunting dogs), but not advanced technology. At least, not without already having advanced technology.
Try to make a tool out of sargassum.
Sharks don't have claws.
Why? A creature that spends most of it's life flying in the atmosphere, and landing on the ocean surface infrequently to rest or feed doesn't need large cities. Also, if no-one has ever told them about DNA or how genetic engineering on an advanced scale would work, they wouldn't be able to do it. Unless they invented the technology and found out themselves, which is nigh impossible due to the resource poor environment.
Although I think it is certain that they would have such misunderstandings of their environment, space travel isn't needed for a somewhat accurate model of their solar system and planet... we knew that the Earth was round and that we orbited the sun long before spaceflight occured. Edited by T.Neo, Feb 4 2010, 12:11 PM.
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| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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