| Speculative biology is simultaneously a science and form of art in which one speculates on the possibilities of life and evolution. What could the world look like if dinosaurs had never gone extinct? What could alien lifeforms look like? What kinds of plants and animals might exist in the far future? These questions and more are tackled by speculative biologists, and the Speculative Evolution welcomes all relevant ideas, inquiries, and world-building projects alike. With a member base comprising users from across the world, our community is the largest and longest-running place of gathering for speculative biologists on the web. While unregistered users are able to browse the forum on a basic level, registering an account provides additional forum access not visible to guests as well as the ability to join in discussions and contribute yourself! Registration is free and instantaneous. Join our community today! |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Ocean Needed ?; Is a marine stage really necessary ?! | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Jan 18 2010, 01:46 PM (786 Views) | |
| Venatosaurus | Jan 18 2010, 01:46 PM Post #1 |
|
HAUS OF SPEC
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I had thought about this long ago, even before I had joined the forums, but now I decide to post the idea. For life to arise, I understand water is usually a necessary substance, but could life still happen without having ever lived in an ocean. What if subterranean life or even terrestrial life was the first to arise, with water being present in underground aquifers or terrestrial streams, life evolve more and more complexity, but never arose from any sea. Would such a thing be possible to occur, with life managing to gain complexity like ours. |
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Ddraig Goch | Jan 18 2010, 02:16 PM Post #2 |
|
Ar hyd y nos
![]()
|
I once read about a theory, posted on a different forum, that life might be able to arise in ice. It didn't come up with an answer, however. |
| Save the Blibbering Humdinger from extinction! | |
![]() |
|
| Venatosaurus | Jan 18 2010, 02:30 PM Post #3 |
|
HAUS OF SPEC
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hmm, wouldn't that be a bit difficult since the frozen ice would stop the metabolic functions of proteins, and also make it difficult to take part in any life function in such an environment. I was also thinking, for life to arise does it even need to have lived in water, couldn't water vapor also sufice ? |
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Ddraig Goch | Jan 18 2010, 02:35 PM Post #4 |
|
Ar hyd y nos
![]()
|
I didn't say that life forming in ice was feasible, merely that it has been speculated. And I guess that liquid water isn't nescessary at all - otherwise, "Jupiter-fish" couldn't evolve (not saying that they do exist - but if Carl Sagan himself suggested them, then they must surely be a possibility?) |
| Save the Blibbering Humdinger from extinction! | |
![]() |
|
| Ànraich | Jan 18 2010, 02:37 PM Post #5 |
![]()
L'évolution Spéculative est moi
![]()
|
Well the thing is, where do complex multicellular organisms come from? Unicellular organisms. And where are they found? Water. Is it possible to have terrestrial life without first having an aquatic stage? Sure, I don't see why not. I'm going to say it is unlikely, but really it is part of our perspective. Earth is covered with water, so it makes sense life would start in the water first and then colonize the land. Perhaps this is common, or, perhaps Earth is abnormally abundant with water, and the ocean creatures colonizing the land is actually a very odd thing. So it can happen, yea. And depending on how abundant water is on the average Earth-like, life-bearing world, it may even be common. It would be difficult, as water was very useful in helping early organisms support their bodies before the development of skeletal systems, but maybe terrestrial-origin organisms would develop something like an exoskeleton to support them, perhaps owing it to the fact they're on land, where minerals are abundant and resource for shells are not hard to come by. |
|
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself
| |
![]() |
|
| Temporary | Jan 18 2010, 02:41 PM Post #6 |
|
Transhuman
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I heard about the ice theory, it was supposed to take longer then normal theories, but that's about the most of what I know. All life really needs (that we know of) is liquid water, the chemicals for the reaction, and energy. I don't see why it can't happen under ground or in a lake or river or something. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it showed up in clouds or in mud (okay, that last one might be pushing it). As long as their is some moisture, it should be able to work. Edited by Temporary, Jan 18 2010, 02:42 PM.
|
I'm here. ![]() Uploaded with ImageShack.us Should we bring back Recon? Click here to share your opinion. | |
![]() |
|
| Ddraig Goch | Jan 18 2010, 02:50 PM Post #7 |
|
Ar hyd y nos
![]()
|
Yay! Jupiter Fish can exist! What about silicon based lifeforms? What are their requirements? |
| Save the Blibbering Humdinger from extinction! | |
![]() |
|
| Temporary | Jan 18 2010, 03:07 PM Post #8 |
|
Transhuman
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
No idea, but I'm glad you brought up gas giants. I think silicon life forms may need a more stable environment do to the few issues silicon has. I actually got to thinking and looking some stuff up about possible gas giant life because of this topic, well, running through data on Jupiter and looking for places life could possibly evolve. Here's what I got: There are small deposite of Hydrogen, Oxygen, Carbon, Silicon, and Ammonia in gas giants in large enough amounts to affect the gas giants appearance. Now, as heat rises from the cores we have convection cells where ammonia crystalizes, which means a solid surface, with heat and electricity, carbon and silicon, plus water (though, not in a liquid state it looks like, but I've only been reading for a split second so I got some more looking around to do before I say for sure). So, kiddies, what have we learned from biology class? Water + Energy + Carbon or Silicon + surface to catalyse chemical reactions = What? Maybe, with luck, life. Though the water might be an issue. If the temperature isn't right, could pressurized liquid water work? Edit: Okay, unless in the cell is a lot warmer then the surface and colder then most of the deeper layers, then no, I doubt naturally liquid water is likely. Still wondering if pressurized water could sustain life. Edited by Temporary, Jan 18 2010, 03:17 PM.
|
I'm here. ![]() Uploaded with ImageShack.us Should we bring back Recon? Click here to share your opinion. | |
![]() |
|
| Empyreon | Jan 18 2010, 09:26 PM Post #9 |
|
Are you plausible?
![]()
|
My astrobiology teacher drilled the following into my head: 1) In order for the components of life to come together they need a medium, whether that's water or some other solute, it needs something for the chemicals to mix in. She never said anything about the amount of water needed, though, so aquafers, ponds, etc. could work, IMO. 2) It's best if that medium is a liquid. Solid water (aka "ice") is crystallized for one thing, and very cold for another. Even if necessary life components did come together, they'd be hard pressed to come together because they'd be so chilly! 3) That's how life originated as we understand it. Scientists spend (not enough, IMO) time searching for places where life as we know it could exist. If life as we don't know it can come about by some other way, it's likely that we may not even recognize it for what it is. How's that for some wild speculative fodder? ![]() 4) Jupiter does in fact have areas of liquid water within its layers, giving rise to the speculation of jovian life forms. (Yay for Jupiter-fish!) Unfortunately, the superhurricane stirring of Jupiter's "atmosphere" are so strong that any primitive life form would be sucked from the low temperature/pressure outer layers down into the high temperature/pressure inner layers and back out in a cycle of only a matter of hours. (Aw, Jupiter-fish go squish...) |
|
Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
| |
![]() |
|
| T.Neo | Jan 19 2010, 08:07 AM Post #10 |
![]()
Translunar injection: TLI
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Life needs a solvent. This solvent needs to be liquid, as molecules don't float well through solids and gases are not dense enough (except maybe a very, very dense gas). Life will arise from chemicals floating within this medium. So a liquid stage will be needed at some point, even if it isn't as prominant as on Earth. Complex life will have evolved barriers to the outside world, but will still be immersed in this medium. Life on land or in the air needs to avoid drying out, which requires special adaptations. Avoiding drying out may seem trivial to us, but it was a big problem for our ancestors and is still a problem for many animals living today... |
| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
![]() |
|
| Venatosaurus | Jan 19 2010, 07:43 PM Post #11 |
|
HAUS OF SPEC
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
But it still presents the possibility of organisms not having to have come from the ocean. I'm sure life could also come form alien hot springs (imagine the colors that could be produced, like the Grand Prismatic Spring in Yellowstone, but on a grander scale !), or even 'acid ponds', life on such planets would result in the evolution of very interesting adaptations ! |
|
| |
![]() |
|
| Empyreon | Jan 20 2010, 10:34 PM Post #12 |
|
Are you plausible?
![]()
|
I've always thought it would be interesting if life had retained some of the traits of extremophiles. The stuff at Yellowstone is beautiful, and if you were to apply it to a subsurface ecology...
|
|
Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
| |
![]() |
|
| Xenophile | Jan 20 2010, 11:56 PM Post #13 |
|
Formerly known as alienboy.
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You have an astrobiology teacher? What college do you attend? |
![]() |
|
| Empyreon | Jan 21 2010, 02:35 AM Post #14 |
|
Are you plausible?
![]()
|
USU, and unfortunately the class didn't get enough into the nuts and bolts of SETI and other astrobiology themes for my tastes. It was an entry level class for integrated science with a fun focus. |
|
Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
| |
![]() |
|
| Venatosaurus | Jan 21 2010, 08:37 PM Post #15 |
|
HAUS OF SPEC
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Imagine the resulting forms of such evolutionary ancestors, with the ability to survive without much water, heat resistance, acid resistance...they'd be really hardy and strange organism shuffling about ! |
|
| |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The Habitable Zone · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
















9:30 AM Jul 11