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Swaping Places
Topic Started: Jan 9 2010, 11:19 PM (1,409 Views)
TheCoon
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Happy merry Jesusmas inhabitants of the Spec Forums!
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Here's a good one: What if arthropods and vertebrates swaped places?

What if the vertebrates were the tiny critters that polinize flowers while arthropods were gigantic grazers and feroceous carnivores?
Greetings young life form! Procyon Lotor at your service.

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The Dodo
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An octopi that can live in trees, I can just imagine one dropping down it's prey, altthough that sounds a little dangerous for it.
They are intelligent, so could anyone see them maybe robbing bird's nests.
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Empyreon
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Are you plausible?

Bird nests would be a good source of food. Also ambush predation. Change shape and color to camouflage with a tree branch, then snatch up a squirrel or monkey or something tasty.
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food for thought
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Venatosaurus
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HAUS OF SPEC
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...Hell why wouldn't they snap up other species of arboreal cephalopods...imagine how the ecology and relationship is between the arboreal animals of Madagascar, now imagine that with cephalopods, except on a slightly larger,more diverse scale !



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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

I'm not in a project with an army of terracephalophiles, am I?

Bird nests are good- but what about the 'swape[sic]'?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Rhob
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The Dodo
 
An octopi that can live in trees, I can just imagine one dropping down it's prey, altthough that sounds a little dangerous for it.
They are intelligent, so could anyone see them maybe robbing bird's nests.


It wouldn't have to drop down on its prey, necessarily. It could grab the prey with one or more of its tentacles.

Great idea about robbing bird nests! I didn't think of that.

Empyreon
 
Bird nests would be a good source of food. Also ambush predation. Change shape and color to camouflage with a tree branch, then snatch up a squirrel or monkey or something tasty.


Exactly! It serves both offensive and defensive purposes, and they come pre-adapted for it.

Venatosaurus
 
...Hell why wouldn't they snap up other species of arboreal cephalopods...imagine how the ecology and relationship is between the arboreal animals of Madagascar, now imagine that with cephalopods, except on a slightly larger,more diverse scale !


No reason they wouldn't, once they've radiated out into many different species. To do that, of course, requires their habitat to be fairly extensive in area. Apparently one place with many mangrove swamps is the southern coast of Florida, but I'm not sure how common cephalopods are there.

Holbenilord
 
I'm not in a project with an army of terracephalophiles, am I?

Bird nests are good- but what about the 'swape[sic]'?


Sorry, I wasn't trying to put this into the project per se -- just wanted to disprove some notions that there's no realistic niches for terrestrial cephalopods to occupy.
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Rhob
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Is no one else going to reply here?
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Toad of Spades
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If arthropods had an efficient breathing system, the only real problem limiting them is their exoskeleton.

So what if they got around that problem? So instead of a normal exoskeleton, what if one evolved a dual exo/endo skeleton? An exoskeleton with internal supports similar to normal bones. With dual support, The limbs would need to be as thick as vertebrate proportions, they couldn't have this kind of skeleton or grow as large with skinny insect legs. They could also be strengthened with something else in addition to the chitin.

Molting is another problem with arthropods. You couldn't have a brachiosaurus sized arthropod descendant molt because it would collapse. Also they couldn't molt off pieces of their internal skeleton. A solution would be to not molt. A covering of skin like velvet on the antlers of a deer covers the exoskeleton and the exoskeleton grows like normal bone. The endoskeleton would grow like normal bone as well.

So with this advanced skeletal system with no need for molting, as well as an efficient breathing system, what else is really limiting them?
Edited by Toad of Spades, Jan 26 2010, 12:10 PM.
Sorry Link, I don't give credit. Come back when you're a little...MMMMMM...Richer.

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ATEK Azul
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That skeletal system is great and I hope you go into more detail Toad of Spades though I must say it would be helpful in other topics aswell if you posted it in them.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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Holben
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Rhob
Jan 26 2010, 08:28 AM
Is no one else going to reply here?
If you're gonna bump a topic, provide something for us to chew on.


I doubt anything with an exoskeleton could grow big enough to cause trouble.

Cnidarians?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Margaret Pye
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So, to have giant arthropods, you'd need to give them an endoskeleton and an active, efficient breathing system... anything else, or would that be enough to take off the size constraints? Oh, and a more efficient circulation.

Hmm, where would you start? Maybe start by adding muscles and valves to a tracheal system? Or hollowing out book-lungs and adding muscle?

The endoskeleton actually sounds easier. Have bits of the exoskeleton gradually detach and move internally until the critter has enough of an internal support system that it can start losing the external one (or it can keep the exoskeleton too, if it needs armour...)

They need haemoglobin.

So do octopi, for that matter - haemocyanin is always the annoying thing when you want octopi to take over the world.

Ah well, I'm sure they can both invent haemoglobin somehow if we want them to. (Isn't there a fly where the maggots, only the aquatic maggots, have red blood?)
My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

(Invent. Hmmm. Invent.)

If they wanna breathe through their skin, they need to be small. If big, they're gonna need big lungs and something that can move oxygen. Although haemoglobin does its job, there are probably alternatives which would be easier to evolve.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Margaret Pye
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Are there? I thought haemoglobin was massively superior to any other known oxygen transport protein.

Definitely way superior to cephalopod haemocyanin, anyway - cephalopods would be much better at aerobic respiration, and have much more stamina, if they managed to evolve haemoglobin.
My speculative dinosaur project. With lots of fluff, parental care and mammalian-level intelligence, and the odd sophont.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

Blimey yes.

Haemocyanin proves the inferior once again.

I think so- but now i doubt myself. I thought there were haemoglobin analogues, i'll have to check.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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