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K-T to the present.; Do Mammals need cosmic intervention?
Topic Started: Dec 28 2009, 04:49 PM (2,509 Views)
ATEK Azul
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This topic while not a project is for the discussion of a scenario where the Meteor missed and the Dinosaurs survived farther than 65 million years ago.

I know you've heard this scenario a bunch, but heres the twist the point of this topic is to have a world where Mammals realisticly out compete the Dinosaurs by the present day without celestial impacts or sapient species.

Other than the normal restrictions of Mammal evolution like the Amount of vertebrae they can have, there are no restrictions.

Also I'm not posting the things I have thought up until the Topic gets some posts so if you want my ideas, please post comments, questions and contributions.

Also have a nice descussion!
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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Holben
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Into the rainforest?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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T.Neo
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Out of the rainforest.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Holben
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Then they'd go back into the Tundra. There are three places they could go- tundra, rainforest, or into the sea.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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T.Neo
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Aquatic sauropods then? Sounds fun, even if entirely implausible. :P

EDIT:

PETM occured 55.8 MYA. Antarctica seperated from S. America much later then that, (AFAIK) 23 million years ago.

Antarctica could have supported more then a refuge for sauropods during the PETM, and they would have been able to move out of this area afterwards.

This would mean sauropods could survive in S. America, at least until hadrosaurs arrived through the Isthmus of Panama and outcompeted them.

But I don't by the "whole planet covered by forests" thing. You WILL have deserts and sparse areas, they might shrink or grow, but they'll always be there.
Edited by T.Neo, Jan 14 2010, 02:06 PM.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Holben
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The world as in the eocene. Green is forests.

Posted Image

As you can see, there is nowhere for a large sauropod to survive.

EDIT: whew, corrected.
Edited by Holben, Jan 15 2010, 01:46 PM.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Carlos
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Well, maybe they could take refuge in polar areas as suggested; back then, it was coniferous forests, and were presumably more open
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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T.Neo
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Quote:
 
The world as in the eocene. Green is forests.


That's the late Cretaceous.

Quote:
 
As you can see, there is nowhere for a large sauropod to survive.


There are still deserts on that map, btw.

A world without even small deserts is a climatological impossibility.

Rainshadows and such WILL exist. And if they exist, slightly wetter climates such as savanna and open forests will too.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Holben
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OMG! Wrong map!
SORRY!

I'll have to edit that.

But you get the jist.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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T.Neo
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There are still deserts in that image.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Holben
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Yesss, but small ones. So, they have little foliage in a small space.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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T.Neo
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They may look small on a map, but remember; this is a planet you're talking about. They're actually quite big.

And if you have deserts, you're bound to have less severe but still open environments. Climate isn't black-and-white.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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ATEK Azul
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So you think Sauropods can survive by living on the small fringes of deserts and rain forests with only 1 group left of their lineage?

Also is there really no way for us to think of Mammals capable of eating, replacing and subjugating(is that the word) most Dinosaurs and Mesozoic creatures?

Sorry I know you have all been working on this and I do see your side of the decision I just find it hard to beleave that the only way for Dinosaurs to die and Mammals take over is to have a giant space rock slam into Earth.

Also good job keeping this alive.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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T.Neo
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Quote:
 
So you think Sauropods can survive by living on the small fringes of deserts and rain forests with only 1 group left of their lineage?


Right, so only having one group left of the lineage means you're doomed to extinction?
Does this mean birds are on their way out? They're only a small portion of a once grand plethora of animals...

And yes, those "small" fringes of deserts... if you didn't know, Earth is a planet, and planets tend to be pretty big.

Quote:
 
Also is there really no way for us to think of Mammals capable of eating, replacing and subjugating(is that the word) most Dinosaurs and Mesozoic creatures?


No, otherwise they would have done that in the Mesozoic.

Maybe in some limited niches, such as very cold environments, but I can't think of much else.

Quote:
 
I just find it hard to beleave that the only way for Dinosaurs to die and Mammals take over is to have a giant space rock slam into Earth.


Pretty much, but a P-T like flood basalt would work just as well.
A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork.
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Holben
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T.Neo
Jan 16 2010, 06:06 AM
And yes, those "small" fringes of deserts... if you didn't know, Earth is a planet, and planets tend to be pretty big.
Actually, on the astronomical scale, planets are so small they are almost nothing.

I'm not sure about the titanosaurids- i don't think they'd spread much from SA, and also what i said earlier.

Mesozoic creatures held out a long time, and it took extended periods of volcanic activity and bombardment to take 'em out.

Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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ATEK Azul
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T.Neo
Jan 16 2010, 06:06 AM
Quote:
 
So you think Sauropods can survive by living on the small fringes of deserts and rain forests with only 1 group left of their lineage?


Right, so only having one group left of the lineage means you're doomed to extinction?
Does this mean birds are on their way out? They're only a small portion of a once grand plethora of animals...

And yes, those "small" fringes of deserts... if you didn't know, Earth is a planet, and planets tend to be pretty big.

Quote:
 
Also is there really no way for us to think of Mammals capable of eating, replacing and subjugating(is that the word) most Dinosaurs and Mesozoic creatures?


No, otherwise they would have done that in the Mesozoic.

Maybe in some limited niches, such as very cold environments, but I can't think of much else.

Quote:
 
I just find it hard to beleave that the only way for Dinosaurs to die and Mammals take over is to have a giant space rock slam into Earth.


Pretty much, but a P-T like flood basalt would work just as well.
1st: your completely over reacting(or focusing) to my statement about the 1 lineage of Sauropods.

2nd: I know those might be some what large but inbetween Desert and Rain forest your going to have some less than predictable weather and at that time Grass hadn't taken over meaning all they have to eat are Cacti and Ferns which don't sound very supportive of super herbivores.

3rd: Alright I guess i must accept this since every body else seems to agree that Mammals are weak pathetic animals with no futures if something else is already there(it just doesn't seem right) unless a mass extinct of K-T or higher proportions hit the planet.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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