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Poisonous Dinosaur Discovered
Topic Started: Dec 21 2009, 09:34 PM (943 Views)
TheCoon
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http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/12/091221-venomous-dinosaur-venom-dinosaurs-snakes.html

Really interesting link.
Edited by TheCoon, Dec 22 2009, 02:00 PM.
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Carlos
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Venom isn't new in archosaurs (there's a Triassic find that might suggest venomous bites as well), but this is by far the only derived theropods I've ever seen to be capable of using venom. Specially because its so close to birds
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http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

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ATEK Azul
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This sounds very interesting and has some great speculative possibillities.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

So, when did venom arise?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

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Carlos
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Venom seems to be restricted to Dinosauromorpha as that archosaur was quite closely related to dinosaurs, and even so I think it evolved independently in said animal and in Sinornithosaurus, just like venom evolved multiple times in mammals. Then again, like in squamates, it might had been developed by the earliest dinosauromorphs. For instance, abelisaurs are a fairly enigmatic group regarding their killing techniques; they lacked arms but their jaws were much weaker than those of tyrannosaurs, and for that matter their teeth as well. Arguably they used a cookie-cutter shark method, ripping pieces of flesh from their prey, but now that venom is known who knows if they actually didn't had a venemous saliva?

And for that matter, what about spinosaurs? They had hollow teeth; maybe they could have had venom to kill large aquatic prey quickly like in sea serpents
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Venatosaurus
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HAUS OF SPEC
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Better yet, this also makes venomous Dilophosaurs very possible, though they'd be more faithful the the Jurassic Park novel rather than the film.



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Carlos
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The frill would obviously be absent, unless its actually made of quills/feathers than of skin as in JP the movie. Indeed, Dilophosaurus, with the strange looking upper jaw and the long teeth, could had been venemous
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Practically Uninformed
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I like this concept that some dinosaurs used venom in their kills, like shrews. Though the one thing that bugs me is that there's also been theories that the same little dromeosaur was a specialized bird-hunter. They said the same thing about Darwinopterus, too, and I don't see either one as being specialized to hunt birds.
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Margaret Pye
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And Darren Naish's favourite theory is that the beastie had perfectly normal teeth when it was alive, but they slid partly out of the sockets after death and so looked strange in the fossil.

But really, who knows? That's paleontology for you.

Hang on, what? Spinosaurs had hollow teeth?
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Carlos
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Practically Uninformed
Feb 24 2010, 10:17 PM
I like this concept that some dinosaurs used venom in their kills, like shrews. Though the one thing that bugs me is that there's also been theories that the same little dromeosaur was a specialized bird-hunter. They said the same thing about Darwinopterus, too, and I don't see either one as being specialized to hunt birds.
The thing about Darwinopterus is that its argued that it doesn't show adaptations for terrestriality and therefore was a more aerial animal, and pretty much everyone was tired of the fish eating thing so it was decided it was occupying another niche, and that is partially supported by the dentition. However, little to no study was made on non-pterodactyloid pterosaur terrestrial locomotion, something that people like Mark Witton have been complaining a lot as one can't simply assumed non-pterodactyloids were clumsy on the ground. While the idea of an aerial predator is appealing, I think Darwinopterus was kinda like a kookaburra, preying on terrestrial prey by diving from the air, though it obviously still preyed on flying animals since birds like crows and kookaburras do so often, just not being specialised to do so.

As for the venom, well, there's more evidence in the moment in favor of the teeth simply having slid out of their sockets, though specialised teeth aren't necessarily required if venom is used.
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Practically Uninformed
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That's what I think, too. On Darwinopterus, that is. In fact, that's probably what facilitated the need for that big head in the first place.
While the pterosaur may not have been as clumsy on land as many believe, it doesn't seem that the rhamphorynchoid leg could have the capacity to snatch and carry off prey like later aerial dive-bombers. Thus, Darwinopterus used its jaws for snatching prey, facilitating a need for them to be so long.
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Margaret Pye
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Specialised teeth and venom can work together, though - look at Komodo dragons.
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Carlos
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Quote:
 
While the pterosaur may not have been as clumsy on land as many believe, it doesn't seem that the rhamphorynchoid leg could have the capacity to snatch and carry off prey like later aerial dive-bombers. Thus, Darwinopterus used its jaws for snatching prey, facilitating a need for them to be so long.


Darwinopterus was always assumed to have used its jaws, regardless of what it ate; no one in their right minds would have suggested pterosaurs carrying prey eagle style, since their feet were quite weak, didn't had opposing toes and were little muscled
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Perfect Chaos
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Damn. Nothing in the "Area of Expertise" I am remotely good at. ><
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JohnFaa
Dec 28 2009, 02:51 PM
Venom seems to be restricted to Dinosauromorpha as that archosaur was quite closely related to dinosaurs, and even so I think it evolved independently in said animal and in Sinornithosaurus, just like venom evolved multiple times in mammals. Then again, like in squamates, it might had been developed by the earliest dinosauromorphs. For instance, abelisaurs are a fairly enigmatic group regarding their killing techniques; they lacked arms but their jaws were much weaker than those of tyrannosaurs, and for that matter their teeth as well. Arguably they used a cookie-cutter shark method, ripping pieces of flesh from their prey, but now that venom is known who knows if they actually didn't had a venemous saliva?

And for that matter, what about spinosaurs? They had hollow teeth; maybe they could have had venom to kill large aquatic prey quickly like in sea serpents
Awesome!!
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