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The Moon, Pandora, from the film "Avatar"
Topic Started: Dec 20 2009, 02:13 PM (8,077 Views)
Yorick
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I took someone's suggestion and created another topic to speculate on the moon's inhabitants' evolution.

So...speculate!
"I believe, that whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you...stranger"

-The Dark Knight (2008)
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Are you plausible?

Let's see, plants... Universal bioluminescence, and everything is oversized: vines are big enough to be treated as rope bridges, and branches are as wide as sidewalks.
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food for thought
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lamna
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I have not seen the film, what is the day night cycle like? The only books I know about a inhabited moon round a gas giant has the planet something that does not seem to move in the sky, and is only visible on the side of the moon nearest the planet. On the other side of the planet you would never know you were orbiting a gas giant.

And it's not that strange for a moon round a gas giant to be warm and habitable. I mean the air is earth like but not breathable, maybe it just as a lot of Carbon Dioxide or Methane in it?
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Are you plausible?

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I have not seen the film, what is the day night cycle like?


It seems pretty much like Earth. At least, close enough that it doesn't really come up in the story.

And yes, Pandora is most likely tidally locked. Its parent planet would remain in the same position at all times. As it orbits, the sun would move through the sky, disappearing behind the jovian at "noon" and below the horizon at sunset. On the side of the planet facing away from the planet, day and night would be pretty much like it is on Earth.

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...maybe it just as a lot of Carbon Dioxide or Methane in it?


It never specifies what the atmospheric mixture is precisely, but it is lethal to humans. CO2 or Methane might fit that bill.
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lamna
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And neatly explain why it's nice and warm. Or the Planet could be closer tot he sun, most exoplanets are gas giants near their star.
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Both ideas work, together or separately. Since you bring it up, I'd like to know how the movie explains why we haven't found this exoplanet around Alpha Centauri yet. We've found planets that aren't too much bigger than Jupiter around stars further away than Alpha Centauri. Why haven't we found Pandora's parent (which I just discovered is named Polyphemus)?
Edited by Empyreon, Dec 21 2009, 06:04 PM.
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Ànraich
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There's probably no planets orbiting Centauri A or Centauri B, but it's actually a triple-star system; Centauri A and B orbit each other, and orbiting them is a third, much smaller star, called Proxima Centauri. It's really small, smaller than the sun; probably not much bigger than Jupiter. In fact, it may be a gas hypergiant, or a brown dwarf that managed to get some kind of small amount of fusion going. There might be something around it, but orbits would be too complex, and there probably wouldn't be any life anywhere in the system.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

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Are you plausible?

Polyphemus actually orbits Alpha Centauri A.

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In fact, it may be a gas hypergiant...


I've heard such bodies that sit in the hazy realm between jovian planets and actual stars referred to as brown dwarfs.

I also found a more itemized list of atmospheric components at this site:

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Pandora's atmosphere is a poisonous brew of ammonia, methane, carbon dioxide, oxygen, nitrogen, and even a small percentage of hydrogen cyanide.
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up.

Hydrogen cyanide? I'm assuming that the Na'vi (and thus all creatures on Pandora) have similar biochemistries to Earth creatures. Otherwise, the Avatar program would fall through and the Na'vi poisons would have different effects on both the Na'vi and the Humans.

So: cyanide is lethal to humans. Shouldn't cyanide also be lethal to the Na'vi? Or have they evolved resistance to cyanide over time?
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Whelp, just posted my four-page review of "Avatar" on the other "Avatar" thread. The one actually discussing the movie.

So I thought I'd repost the biology aspect of that review, since we are discussing Pandoran biology on this thread.


Part One: Biology
 
Okay. I know we’ve been griping about Pandoran biological inaccuracies a lot. But when I was watching the film (and even after when I began to think straight again), I didn’t see many more biological inaccuracies than Snaiad has.

Let me break it down for you, bringing up the biggest things we’ve been debating:

1. The Dire Horse: I’m willing to chalk this up to convergent evolution. The dire horse exists in a similar niche to Earth horses. It’s like the fuckers of Snaiad and the lions of Earth. The kahydrons of Snaiad and the wolves of Earth. The allotaurs of Snaiad and the rhinos of Earth. Convergent evolution at its best. Though basically, the dire horse is just one big pollinator. Basically, it’s like a hummingbird crossed with a horse crossed with an anteater crossed with an armadillo. Hummingbird-like because it pollinates. Horse-like because, well, look at the thing. Anteater-like because of the insanely long tongue. Armadillo-like because of its armor. However, I’m assuming that, if the dire horse were real, it would also supplement its diet with some Pandoran fruit.

2. Na’vi: We’ve pretty much settled the four limb debate. Prolemurids came in to save us from completely ripping the Na’vi concept apart. Now: the main part I have a problem with is their nerve ponytail. But, after seeing the movie, that has been resolved. The prolemurids had the beginnings of this ponytail. I’d assume that, if the prolemurids exist, they use their ponytail nerve endings as a way to communicate. Sort of like arthropodian pheromones or humans caressing each other to show we love someone. We’ve pretty much come to an agreement that, based on what information has been given us, that the prolemurids are the ancestors of the Na’vi. So my hypothesis with the nerve hairs is that the Na’vi can use the nerve hairs to communicate with each other. Maybe the Na’vi can link to each other like the can to the dire horses and such.

3. Bonding: Now we get to our main quarrel with Pandoran biology. The bonding the Na’vi seem to be able to do with nature. My hypothesis is the Na’vi just taking advantage of the evolution of the Pandoran “vertebrate”. Sort of like how humans took advantage of mammalian milk production and mammalian trainability. My theory is that all Pandoran verts have evolved nerve antennae (which evolved into more advanced nerve hairs in the prolemurids and Na’vi (which, for arguments sake, I’m going to group with the prolemurids)) to communicate. If memory serves me right, I think there was a seen where the dire horses caressed each other with their antennae when in close proximity. I’m thinking that the Na’vi’s earliest civilized ancestors figured out “Hey, we can connect to each other. Other animals have similar structures. I wonder if we can do the same to them?”. Eventually, the civilization perfected the bonding and it got to the level it is in the movie.

4. The Plants: You know the ones I’m talking about. The ones like the soul tree and the tree that stores the Na’vi’s memories. These plants (which I shall call nervaphytes for simplicity’s sake) seem to have evolved a nervous system. In one scene, Grace (Sigourney Weaver’s character) comments that the memory plants are interconnected by the roots, seeming to form a neural network. This, in essence, is a more advanced version of acacia communication. On the African savannah, acacias communicate using a plant version of pheromones. They only communicate when either giraffes or a certain species of ant (can’t remember which) begin to eat the acacia. The acacia being eaten sends out pheromones to the other trees that say “Hey, I’m being eaten over here. Produce a poison so the same doesn’t happen to you.” Plant communication is possible, and is even happening on Earth. Heck, Earth plants even have a rudimentary nervous system. Just look at the honeydew plant or the more famous Venus fly trap. Insect lands on plant, activates the bristles, plant snaps shut, plant digests insect. It’s not too farfetched for a plant to evolve that actually has a complex nervous system. Especially in the different evolutionary pressures presented on Pandora. Now: if the Na’vi can bond with another animal’s nervous system (which isn’t all that farfetched. We can send electrical impulses from our brains into machines. So in a world where vocalization is not very efficient (take a look at the respiratory system of Pandoran animals), an advanced nervous system that can link to others for communicative purposes isn’t that big of a stretch), it isn’t that much of a stretch for them to attach to a plant’s nervous system and take advantage of their interconnectedness, which would evolve for the same purpose as the animal’s nervous system extensions.

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lamna
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Well I am sure their are things that can kill organic life and the other kind of life that is fine with cyanide, I forgot which kind and can't find my copy of New Scientist that would tell me. Ammonia? Maybe?
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ATEK Azul
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Dec 22 2009, 01:01 AM
Whelp, just posted my four-page review of "Avatar" on the other "Avatar" thread. The one actually discussing the movie.

So I thought I'd repost the biology aspect of that review, since we are discussing Pandoran biology on this thread.


Part One: Biology
 
Okay. I know we’ve been griping about Pandoran biological inaccuracies a lot. But when I was watching the film (and even after when I began to think straight again), I didn’t see many more biological inaccuracies than Snaiad has.

Let me break it down for you, bringing up the biggest things we’ve been debating:

1. The Dire Horse: I’m willing to chalk this up to convergent evolution. The dire horse exists in a similar niche to Earth horses. It’s like the fuckers of Snaiad and the lions of Earth. The kahydrons of Snaiad and the wolves of Earth. The allotaurs of Snaiad and the rhinos of Earth. Convergent evolution at its best. Though basically, the dire horse is just one big pollinator. Basically, it’s like a hummingbird crossed with a horse crossed with an anteater crossed with an armadillo. Hummingbird-like because it pollinates. Horse-like because, well, look at the thing. Anteater-like because of the insanely long tongue. Armadillo-like because of its armor. However, I’m assuming that, if the dire horse were real, it would also supplement its diet with some Pandoran fruit.

2. Na’vi: We’ve pretty much settled the four limb debate. Prolemurids came in to save us from completely ripping the Na’vi concept apart. Now: the main part I have a problem with is their nerve ponytail. But, after seeing the movie, that has been resolved. The prolemurids had the beginnings of this ponytail. I’d assume that, if the prolemurids exist, they use their ponytail nerve endings as a way to communicate. Sort of like arthropodian pheromones or humans caressing each other to show we love someone. We’ve pretty much come to an agreement that, based on what information has been given us, that the prolemurids are the ancestors of the Na’vi. So my hypothesis with the nerve hairs is that the Na’vi can use the nerve hairs to communicate with each other. Maybe the Na’vi can link to each other like the can to the dire horses and such.

3. Bonding: Now we get to our main quarrel with Pandoran biology. The bonding the Na’vi seem to be able to do with nature. My hypothesis is the Na’vi just taking advantage of the evolution of the Pandoran “vertebrate”. Sort of like how humans took advantage of mammalian milk production and mammalian trainability. My theory is that all Pandoran verts have evolved nerve antennae (which evolved into more advanced nerve hairs in the prolemurids and Na’vi (which, for arguments sake, I’m going to group with the prolemurids)) to communicate. If memory serves me right, I think there was a seen where the dire horses caressed each other with their antennae when in close proximity. I’m thinking that the Na’vi’s earliest civilized ancestors figured out “Hey, we can connect to each other. Other animals have similar structures. I wonder if we can do the same to them?”. Eventually, the civilization perfected the bonding and it got to the level it is in the movie.

4. The Plants: You know the ones I’m talking about. The ones like the soul tree and the tree that stores the Na’vi’s memories. These plants (which I shall call nervaphytes for simplicity’s sake) seem to have evolved a nervous system. In one scene, Grace (Sigourney Weaver’s character) comments that the memory plants are interconnected by the roots, seeming to form a neural network. This, in essence, is a more advanced version of acacia communication. On the African savannah, acacias communicate using a plant version of pheromones. They only communicate when either giraffes or a certain species of ant (can’t remember which) begin to eat the acacia. The acacia being eaten sends out pheromones to the other trees that say “Hey, I’m being eaten over here. Produce a poison so the same doesn’t happen to you.” Plant communication is possible, and is even happening on Earth. Heck, Earth plants even have a rudimentary nervous system. Just look at the honeydew plant or the more famous Venus fly trap. Insect lands on plant, activates the bristles, plant snaps shut, plant digests insect. It’s not too farfetched for a plant to evolve that actually has a complex nervous system. Especially in the different evolutionary pressures presented on Pandora. Now: if the Na’vi can bond with another animal’s nervous system (which isn’t all that farfetched. We can send electrical impulses from our brains into machines. So in a world where vocalization is not very efficient (take a look at the respiratory system of Pandoran animals), an advanced nervous system that can link to others for communicative purposes isn’t that big of a stretch), it isn’t that much of a stretch for them to attach to a plant’s nervous system and take advantage of their interconnectedness, which would evolve for the same purpose as the animal’s nervous system extensions.


Thanks for sharing with us.

The Dire Horses from your description sound different enough so they don't cause much problem evolution wise.


Also if they don't connect with them selves in the movie it might mean that the Na'vi have kinda made it a bad thing to bond to them selves for you loose some part of your individuality.


I agree with the start of Plant nerve evolution but a part of it might be that they purposely evolved nerves compatible with Vertebrates, simular to how our Plants offer necter from flowers. Maybe bonding with these Plants has another benefit for the Vertebrates and the Plant gains sensory imput about it's surroundings allowing it to grow in certain directions?

Also the Hydrogen Cyanide could either be extreted from the body so that it can't enter the main organs or life might just be immune.
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We’ve pretty much come to an agreement that, based on what information has been given us, that the prolemurids are the ancestors of the Na’vi.


Or at the very least close relatives evolved from some common ancestor.

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...which evolved into more advanced nerve hairs in the prolemurids and Na’vi...


The question that still floats around in my mind is why it's in a braid with the Na'vi. The nerve "braid" is universal, with no other stylistic variations. We all know how 'creative' hairstyles can get (and the Na'vi exhibit similar variety), so why not variety in this as well? Also, the Avatars are shown with a braided ponytail while still in their gestation tanks. Who braided it? Did it naturally grow that way, and the Na'vi are just naturally born with a braided ponytail? If so, how does hair grow like that?

Quote:
 
Hydrogen cyanide?


I would imagine all life has developed an immunity to hydrogen cyanide. Stephen Gillette's World Building book talks about a similar path of universal resistance with chlorine, and even points out that there was a point when life on Earth needed to adapt to an increase in highly reactive oxygen.

I don't know how the Na'vi dealt with it, but your idea seems plausible ATEK Azul.
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lamna
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Presumable braiding is to protect it and the humans do it so when the human wake up they don't bang it into anything without padding.
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ATEK Azul
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Thanks for the mention Empyreon.

Also the nerves might be braided in that way inorder to be more effective when connecting to others.

Also If their closest living relatives are Lemures then they have alot of extinct relatives. Maybe that's why the Na'vi are so peaceful they evolved from hyper agressive Primates which are agressive enough to actively destroy other related groups they come in contact with. When the Na'vi became sentient this agressive behavior threatened their enviroment even more than Humans to Earth life leading to an extinction and almost obliteration of the Na'vi themselves forcing a change of behavior towards peaceful coexistence as they rebuilt their planet?
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lamna
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Or perhaps they are not native to the region and have expanded. I mean their are people on Madagascar after all.
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