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| The Moon, Pandora, from the film "Avatar" | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 20 2009, 02:13 PM (8,066 Views) | |
| Yorick | Dec 20 2009, 02:13 PM Post #1 |
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Adult
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I took someone's suggestion and created another topic to speculate on the moon's inhabitants' evolution. So...speculate! |
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"I believe, that whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you...stranger" -The Dark Knight (2008) | |
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| T.Neo | Jan 7 2010, 09:13 AM Post #181 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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To try from another angle, imagine humans evolving on another planet. We both know that this is impossible, you'd need extremely similar ancestries and climatological events. That's what the Na'vi are. They're humans, with a few small differences. If you presented an alien that had the basic body shape of a human, I'd find it somewhat believable. But not something that is essentially a human with some small differences.
I'm afraid we're getting confused here- you're talking "humanoid" as in "human-looking alien" while I am talking about "humanoid" as in "has a similar outline to a human".
No. And the whiplike tail and head-genitals of a Kahydront don't hide it's wolf inspirations. But both the kahydront and thanator don't much resemble their wolf/panther counterparts, despite being based on them.
I'm not dismissing that, just not bringing it up. It's face is indeed quite wide for a forest dwelling animal; I'd imagien it would be stuck/caught/scraped very quickly.
Pterosaurs and bats both have membranous wings, so that isn't very alien. And as said flyers are hexapods, the coud be four-winged. And the flyers aren't spotless from a plausibility point of view either. The unique adaptations in the respiratory system and the ability to carry a (larger than) human rider are suspect.
The fact that they're simply far too convergent. While other animals are convergent (and alien life is bound to be convergent to some degree), the Na'vi are just too similar to be plausible. As are some of the plants. From what I can see there are essentially tree ferns and bamboo on Pandora, which would make as much sense as having Na'vi there. You might not even have "plants" or "animals" on a planet, either. But granted, a film about a planet covered in semi-motile radial fungoids wouldn't be too interesting.
Not the same, just similar. Humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutangs actually have very similar body features. In fact, most apes including monkeys and gibbons share their basic body features with humans. What I'm saying here, is that if you evolve a species from another species, it will retain the features of the ancestral species, instead of suddenly adopting traits from a totally unrelated species.
Actually no. Tyrannosaurs and Brachiosaurs are not closely related at all, sharks and manta rays probably less so (not sure as my knowledge of shark taxonomy is lacking). Chimps and lemurs are the closest relatives that you've described there.
There is a resemblance between the Na'vi and the prolemuris, but a stronger resemblance between the Na'vi and Humans. If you developed a Na'vi from a prolemuri, it wouldn't look the way they did in the film.
I'm afraid that I'll have to agree with you there. Unlikely, but highly so. |
| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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| lamna | Jan 7 2010, 11:27 AM Post #182 |
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Indeed they are unlikely, but their is nothing stopping them developing into a humanoid form on an earth like world. It's no less likely than any other form an intelligent civilized (or at least the potential to become/be civilized) species. |
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Living Fossils Fósseis Vibos: Reserva Natural 34 MYH, 4 tonne dinosaur. [flash=500,450] Video Magic! [/flash] | |
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| ATEK Azul | Jan 7 2010, 04:40 PM Post #183 |
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Transhuman
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Wow this has taken an interesting turn to the point where I must post. Alright So i've heard the humanoid and convergence issue going here and I must ask, if these lifeforms are so implausible then what would each person in this arguement replace them with if at all. And if your going to have another alien convergence discussion make a topic for this since it is such a known and heated discussion? Also every one here has strong support from what they have said, to which I say is good but in the end are unjustified opinions to some degree. And before you ask I am talking about our lack of intellegent and altogether alien life forms to our knowledge which might not even be resolved in our life time. |
| I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's! | |
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| Empyreon | Jan 7 2010, 05:51 PM Post #184 |
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Are you plausible?
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Not impossible, just implausible. The fact that it happened a particular way in one place doesn't lessen the likelihood of it happening in another. We don't disagree that other possibilities exist, and that the odds of the Na'vi being so similar to humans is astronomical, but the word 'impossible' doesn't come to mind for me. Lightning can strike the same place twice, and often does.
Forgive my ignorance, but what's the difference? Isn't an alien that looks like a human the same thing as an alien that has a similar outline? Perhaps my confusion stems from the meaning of 'similar'. I mean, E.T. can be classified as just as humanoid as the Na'vi; upright bipedal reptilians with two front-oriented eyes can be considered in the same group of humanoid aliens. They all have relatively similar outlines (a head above the torso, two arms and two legs, and tails of varying sizes). If we tighten the sensitivity of what we consider 'similar' then the groups grow considerably smaller. Yes, the Na'vi are more similar to humans than the other examples, but they are no more or less likely than the other body shapes mentioned.
What's a Kahydront?
I get that. I understand where you're coming from and the logic of your statement. I just disagree, and there simply isn't enough concrete information to come to an agreement through the presentation of evidence.
It's the age-old Hollywood conundrum. "Do I explore different avenues of evolution for the aliens in my movie/TV show or do I stick with the more familiar humanoids?" Unfortunately, selling tickets is a factor, and there just aren't enough of us out there who would really enjoy seeing something really different...
And I see enough similarities between a Na'vi and a prolemuris as I do between a human and other primates. To my perception, the Na'vi have retained plenty of traits similar to the prolemuris; once again it seems our definition of 'similar' differs.
That's one the points I'm trying to make, too. Whether the Na'vi are plausible or not is truly incalculable; we lack sufficient data because we have a statistically indeterminate sampling of one, so we resort to personal opinion. My opinion is that, as far as the milieu of Avatar is concerned, lightning struck twice. Edited by Empyreon, Jan 7 2010, 05:59 PM.
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Take a look at my exobiology subforum of the planet Nereus! COM Contributions food for thought
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| Yorick | Jan 7 2010, 05:53 PM Post #185 |
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Adult
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Don't you think you're nit-picking too much, Neo? How drastically different do you need your aliens to be for you to accept them and go along for the ride. Suspension-of-disbelief, dude... |
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"I believe, that whatever doesn't kill you, simply makes you...stranger" -The Dark Knight (2008) | |
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| Ànraich | Jan 7 2010, 11:14 PM Post #186 |
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L'évolution Spéculative est moi
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Look the biggest thing here isn't the human body shape, I suppose that, upon review of their probably evolutionary path, a human shape body plan was possible (especially if they moved onto the plains and then returned to the jungle, which, by the way, is very unlikely considering how much more plentiful food is in a jungle and on open plains). What is strange, however, is that despite their hexapod ancestors, they have only four limbs, and no indication that they ever had more than that. We see no other non-hexapods, and in fact even most of the insects are hexapods, which only makes it more of a mystery. There is no indication of limbs fusing, and no reason to lose them, in fact that would be an evolutionary disfavor, all things considered. And to hell with suspension of disbelief. Barlowe designed most of these creatures, I would expect him to at least do something about the Na'vi. I mean, he could have at least adapted some species related to the Na'vi to give us some kind of explanation. But no, they just have no third pair of limbs, no indication they ever did, despite everything else on the planet having three pairs of limbs. |
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We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar. "The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming Tree That Owns Itself
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| Canis Lupis | Jan 8 2010, 01:27 AM Post #187 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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Let me adress the lack of any quadropedal Pandorzoans (besides the Na'vi) by stating a statistic. We speculative biologists make up a very small percentage of the population. The rest of the world just likes to see creatures that are more (and pardon my language) badass. The rest of the world doesn't really care about plausibility. That's why there are still energy beings in fiction. So, if Pandora was a real place, there would obviously be some quadropeds (though the advantage here is unclear to me). But since it's a movie, James Cameron just wanted to show the truly badass creatures. Which does not satisfy the curiosity of us speculative biologists. Anyway, T.Neo: tyrannosaurs (well, theropods) and brachiosaurs (sauropods) are in the same super-order. They all have the same hip structure (saurischian, I think). Rays and sharks are grouped together in the class chondricthyes and most likely diverged some time in the Devonian or Carboniferous. Chimps and lemurs are more closely related than the others, but only at the order level. Like lamna said: we are 100% sure that the human(oid) body plan works to form civilization. Now, this in no way means that it's the only form. We just so far know of only one case of civilization, and that civilization is humanoid. The Na'vi are different enough for me to be alien. I wouldn't like to see them in any of you guys's projects. But hey, it's a movie. Most of the movie goers are (and no offense to them) idiots and just care about action, not plausibility. |
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| lamna | Jan 8 2010, 03:37 AM Post #188 |
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Well I suggested they might have gone though a gibbon like stage where extra arms were not that useful and just got in the way and weighted the animal down, but it is a bit rubbish. I suspect it's because at the end of the day, the Na'vi are still people in suits. Motion capture suits, but suits none the less and their are not many actors with 6 limbs. The again the tails worked, so maybe it's just a case of them not wanting to risk messing up the Na'vi with more features that might look stuck on rather than natural. Edited by lamna, Jan 8 2010, 03:38 AM.
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Living Fossils Fósseis Vibos: Reserva Natural 34 MYH, 4 tonne dinosaur. [flash=500,450] Video Magic! [/flash] | |
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| T.Neo | Jan 8 2010, 06:43 AM Post #189 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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No.
The line isn't drawn a "differentness". It's drawn at "sameness". Because we are FAR more likely to find aliens that are different from us then they are similar. As lamna said, there isn't any law of physics that prevents humans from evolving on another planet. It's just highly, highly unlikely since there are far more routes that life could take, and far more forms which do not allow human evolution. But yeah. Would you accept a film where people have three heads and fly around on giant keyboards? What about a film where the Moon has landed in the midwestern United States? It's all about suspension of disbelief. ![]()
Hip structure does not make them similar animals. Saurischia is a very diverse group; you've got brachiosaurs, therizinosaurs and bee hummingbirds, and they look nothing like eachother. Lemurs and chimps are at least within the same order.
Yes, that is why Pandora has gigantic panther analogues and man-carrying dragons; they're badass. But you can still be accurate and badass... some Snaidi creatures come to mind. ![]()
Indeed. But what I get angry with is when people state that something like a Na'vi is actually an accurate representation of a sophont species.
Yes, but the odds of that happening are so low that it is almost certain that it won't happen anywhere else in the entire Universe. The odds for a organism like the Na'vi is higher, but still pretty low.
No. The Na'vi also have things like ears, of a similar appearance and position to our own, eyes, of a similar position and appearance to our own, a nose (!) of a similar appearance and position to our own, joints that are essentially identical to our own, hands (and presumably feet) that are identical to our own (aside from digit differences) and even a bellybutton, in exactly the same place you'd find one on a human. Not to mention breasts, even though the Na'vi aren't "placental mammals" (which contradicts the bellybutton). There are nonplacental mammals that produce milk too, btw. Compare that to an alien that is a pillar-erect biped with two arms coming out of the torso and a head sticking out above the torso. That's a "humanoid" in that is has a similar body shape to a human, but that is where the similarities end.
A medium-sized carnivorous animal from Nemo Ramjet's Snaiad. If you have not read Snaid yet, I recommend that you do. It's a very well done and thought-out speculative biology project, potentially one of the best if not the best out there. http://www.nemoramjet.com/snduterus.html
So, come up with something original at least. People have done that before, and it has worked. Conversely, have there really been any films that featured non-humanoid characters that became flops because of it? I'm beginning to think that the "Humans only" is more due to the usual paradigm of "it must be done that way" then any real-world occurence.
Indeed. The way I look at it, the odds are simply too small, and for the Na'vi to be plausible, one needs to enact Suspension of Disbelief. Like I stated earlier, it's not the Na'vi I have a problem with, it's the fact that people seem to believe that aliens like that are plausible. Edited by T.Neo, Jan 8 2010, 07:11 AM.
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| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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| lamna | Jan 8 2010, 12:10 PM Post #190 |
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I can't think of a film where it failed because the characters were too different from humans. Generally it comes from when they are too human they fall into the uncanny valley and become creepy, which I think Avatar managed to avoid rather well. Does anyone think it could have worked without the romance, hence removing the need for the human like characters? Also, does anyone know what the gravity was on the planet? That was the thing that really got me about the film Colonel Miles Badass mentions how the gravity will weaken you, but the Na'vi would be born weak. Humans should have been like Dwarven Warriors in the film. |
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Living Fossils Fósseis Vibos: Reserva Natural 34 MYH, 4 tonne dinosaur. [flash=500,450] Video Magic! [/flash] | |
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| Holben | Jan 8 2010, 12:14 PM Post #191 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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I assume the gravity is lower. Think of the fliers' size! But the pull of the giant is also a major factor- perhaps they could indeed 'ride' on the gravity? |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| T.Neo | Jan 8 2010, 12:31 PM Post #192 |
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Translunar injection: TLI
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No, they'd be adapted to the gravity and thus suffer none of the effects felt by humans there. They could be weaker because getting around would be easier in the lower gravity and thus require less strength, but they oculd also be multitudes stronger then humans anyway (why? beats me. Chimps do it...). Insanely strong aliens are a cliche in sci-fi. The Prawns are an example of this.
Not from on the moon- if that were the case, Pandora would be within Polyphemus's tidal limits and would be destroyed (just search for Roche Radius). The flyers used a combination of the thicker atmosphere (higher pressure, obviously) and the gravity. According to a site I found the attributes are as follows: Gravity is 0.8gs. Not particularly low, but still low enough to allow flight of large creatures and to "soften" humans. While in space exploration "softening" to the degree found in an 0.8g environment might be acceptable, it clearly isn't acceptable for military operations (or at least not seen as acceptable by Colonel Badass). Surface pressure is 0.9 atmospheres, but atmospheric density is 1.2 that of Earth (not sure what is going on here- perhaps there is some cool physics trick here that I don't know about.). I would have added more for the flying creatures, but every bit helps. |
| A hard mathematical figure provides a sort of enlightenment to one's understanding of an idea that is never matched by mere guesswork. | |
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| Holben | Jan 8 2010, 12:40 PM Post #193 |
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Rumbo a la Victoria
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But, humans are rather weak. Orang utans can be five times stronger, chimps twice as strong, and gorilla silverbacks up to eight times stronger. |
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Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea. "It is the old wound my king. It has never healed." | |
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| Ddraig Goch | Jan 8 2010, 02:20 PM Post #194 |
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Ar hyd y nos
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The main problem I have with the Na'vi is the tail. Assuming they evolved from a Prolemuris, or something similar, then why did they re-evolve the tail, which Prolemuris doesn't have? |
| Save the Blibbering Humdinger from extinction! | |
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| Canis Lupis | Jan 8 2010, 02:23 PM Post #195 |
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.
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The only problem I really have with the Na'vi is the eyes. All other Pandoran animals shown in the movie have four eyes. Why is this not the case for the Na'vi? It would be extremely advantageous. It could just be the creepy factor of four eyes that make most movie goers go "Ewww!". But the four eyes wouldn't be so bad looking to a movie goer. So long as you kept the other features. |
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