Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Speculative biology is simultaneously a science and form of art in which one speculates on the possibilities of life and evolution. What could the world look like if dinosaurs had never gone extinct? What could alien lifeforms look like? What kinds of plants and animals might exist in the far future? These questions and more are tackled by speculative biologists, and the Speculative Evolution welcomes all relevant ideas, inquiries, and world-building projects alike. With a member base comprising users from across the world, our community is the largest and longest-running place of gathering for speculative biologists on the web.

While unregistered users are able to browse the forum on a basic level, registering an account provides additional forum access not visible to guests as well as the ability to join in discussions and contribute yourself! Registration is free and instantaneous.

Join our community today!

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Capsid based life
Topic Started: Nov 19 2009, 10:10 PM (893 Views)
Paul_de_Vries
Newborn
 *  *  *
I personally see viruses as a kind of life even though many many many people disagree. This is because I find the definition of life extremely arbitrary and biased towards more familiar forms of life that were known to us earlier; if viruses had been studied before bacteria (I know I know...its just a thought experiment), then a definition of life would have been made to include viruses. Maybe (according to the prevailing definition) viruses were even alive once, but degenerated into non-life long ago as they specialized in parasitism of cellular life.

Anyway what I wanted to ask your opinion about is this: viruses aren't celular... instead they have a protein coat called a capsid. There is actually a virus which is bigger than some prokaryotes (both in actual size, and genome size).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimivirus

So... what about a form of life which developed into the capsid equivalent of multicelular organisms. Is it plausible? In any way? We tend to consider viruses inferior to cellular life...but maybe thats the wrong way to look at it. They have no need to become more advanced, they are great at their way of life. Maybe if they wouldnt have gone down this path, they could have become just as advanced as cellular life is on earth.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ànraich
Member Avatar
L'évolution Spéculative est moi

It might be possible, but highly unlikely. Viruses are capsid based for a reason, they're streamlined for a parasitic lifestyle. They can survive indefinitely and reproduce with no energy consumption. You can't really get that in a multicelluar organism. And to have simply capsid-based life would require a huge protein intake for even the smallest creatures.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

Tree That Owns Itself
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ATEK Azul
Member Avatar
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I think it might be possible for an organism with Virus traits to become more complex. But a Virus itself would not be able too.

I can see a multicellular organism reproducing with Viral sperm and eggs which they inject into creatures though. And that might be the reason for the protein coating.

Also the life evolved from Virus like cells it will vary depending on the size of their cells which as you pointed out can vary with Viruses.

Also if the cells evolve their coating into a sphere of shapes it might allow them to organise in vary uniform ways.
Edited by ATEK Azul, Nov 19 2009, 10:41 PM.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ànraich
Member Avatar
L'évolution Spéculative est moi

So it's a creature that reproduces by...Turning other organisms into a member of its own species? That's pretty insidious, Nature. I love it. I'm probably not even getting what you're actually saying, but I have to say my idea, despite its unlikeliness, is still cool (and is also now my personal favorite method of reproduction).
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

Tree That Owns Itself
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ATEK Azul
Member Avatar
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Well almost I was thinking they inject the Virus and it spreads through out the body into the cells and then the host animal splits into sections which will form into infants of the injector species. Anything that is not made of cells is left as the remains of the host animal to be recycled.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

So, it must make a LOT of cells form the host to 'turn' it.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ATEK Azul
Member Avatar
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I was thinking something like that plus some life might make larger life their hosts so that they can generate large numbers of offspring.

Also some life might specialize in transforming flora into offspring instead of actual animals.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

That would be harder, what with cell walls and all.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ànraich
Member Avatar
L'évolution Spéculative est moi

Perhaps they have a kind of larval young? They attack a host, injecting their reproductive viroids into it, and the viroids convert the cells of the host into larval young, which later grow into a new member of the parent species.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

Tree That Owns Itself
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

Sounds horrible for those affected.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ànraich
Member Avatar
L'évolution Spéculative est moi

I bet it is. I mean, they have to be alive when this is happening, otherwise the viroids can't use the cells. You can't use a factory full of broken machinery.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

Tree That Owns Itself
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Paul_de_Vries
Newborn
 *  *  *
Those are awesome ideas but I meant more along the lines of, just the property of have a capsid outer layer instead of a lipid membrane. BTW, I don't see high protein intake as a problem, if this is the dominant way of life any organism they eat will consist of high amounts of protein anyway ;) Bassically a lot more protein would be in circulation than here an earth.

Parasky I would like to know more of your thoughts on why you think its unlikely... intuitively I say the same but I can't really justifty it to be honest.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ATEK Azul
Member Avatar
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I think the Protein coating would allow for a more organised structure of the tissues and structures in Multicellular organisms.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

But with a thick protein coat, it would be hard for nutrients to get into cells.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ànraich
Member Avatar
L'évolution Spéculative est moi

Holbenilord
Nov 21 2009, 05:46 AM
But with a thick protein coat, it would be hard for nutrients to get into cells.
My point exactly. It just seems too inefficient from an evolutionary point of view. The only way it would be able to survive and not be out-competed by other, more efficient organisms is if it reproduced at an ungodly rate, at which point overpopulation would spell disaster for the ecosystem and doom for the species.
We should all aspire to die surrounded by our dearest friends. Just like Julius Caesar.

"The Lord Universe said: 'The same fate I have given to all things from stones to stars, that one day they shall become naught but memories aloft upon the winds of time. From dust all was born, and to dust all shall return.' He then looked upon His greatest creation, life, and pitied them, for unlike stars and stones they would soon learn of this fate and despair in the futility of their own existence. And so the Lord Universe decided to give life two gifts to save them from this despair. The first of these gifts was the soul, that life might more readily accept their fate, and the second was fear, that they might in time learn to avoid it altogether." - Excerpt from a Chanagwan creation myth, Legends and Folklore of the Planet Ghar, collected and published by Yieju Bai'an, explorer from the Celestial Commonwealth of Qonming

Tree That Owns Itself
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The Habitable Zone · Next Topic »
Add Reply