Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Speculative biology is simultaneously a science and form of art in which one speculates on the possibilities of life and evolution. What could the world look like if dinosaurs had never gone extinct? What could alien lifeforms look like? What kinds of plants and animals might exist in the far future? These questions and more are tackled by speculative biologists, and the Speculative Evolution welcomes all relevant ideas, inquiries, and world-building projects alike. With a member base comprising users from across the world, our community is the largest and longest-running place of gathering for speculative biologists on the web.

While unregistered users are able to browse the forum on a basic level, registering an account provides additional forum access not visible to guests as well as the ability to join in discussions and contribute yourself! Registration is free and instantaneous.

Join our community today!

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Birdless world; stronger K-T
Topic Started: Nov 5 2009, 08:41 PM (4,599 Views)
Canis Lupis
Member Avatar
Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

65 million years ago, an asteroid struck Earth and wiped out a good percentage of life on the planet.

Among the extinct were all dinosaurs (save for birds), all air reptiles, all marine reptiles, and a few groups I forgot to mention (I'm not a paleontologist, so if someone were to name all the groups that went extinct, I'd be grateful).



Anyway, what I was wondering was: what if the asteroid had been slightly larger? Large enough to count the birds among those forever buried in the fossil record.

What would the post K-T world be like without birds?

Discuss ideas and possible creatures.


P.S. If you're interested in turning this into an actual project, let me know.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
The Dodo
Member Avatar
Prime Specimen
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *
I'm stuck between marsupial and primate, both seem pretty good. I'm deciding to go marsupial, maybe something which quickly evolved in the southern hemisphere before the arrival of bats.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

The baby in the pouch will fall out though.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Carlos
Member Avatar
Adveho in me Lucifero
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Tell that to all the marsupials that have pouch muscles
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

I would, but they wouldn't understand. Anyway, they could use those muscles to draw the wings.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Carlos
Member Avatar
Adveho in me Lucifero
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
There's nothing that pouches can do to damage an animal's ability to fly, period. The pouch muscles are totally unrelated to the wing ones, and if the pouch opened backwards like that of an yapok any aerodynamical problems would be solved
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

Opened backwards? How?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Carlos
Member Avatar
Adveho in me Lucifero
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Take a look at a koala's or wombat's pouch and stop questioning
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Holben
Member Avatar
Rumbo a la Victoria

Quote:
 
Female koalas have been described as having a ‘backward-opening’ pouch, in common with wombats and in contrast to an upward-opening pouch like kangaroos. However, that's not strictly true. When a female koala first gives birth to young her pouch opening faces neither up nor down, although it is located towards the bottom of the pouch rather than at the top. It faces straight outwards rather than ‘backwards’. It sometimes appears to be ‘backward-facing’ because when the joey is older and leans out of the pouch, this pulls the pouch downwards or ‘backwards’. The pouch has a strong sphincter muscle at the opening to prevent the joey from falling out.


Alright, calm down.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ATEK Azul
Member Avatar
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
With a possibly higher amount of Marsupials world wide in the alternate fuanal interchange along with an absence of Bats in both Marsupial continents I am putting my money on Marsupials.

And I think the interchange will go differently becuase the South American Marsupials will have had to adapt to Crocodillian predators and a need to fill all of the flying niches with out flying meaning that alot of diversifying will happen that will effect the rest of the continent along with give the drive to evolve flight.

And if the Crocodillian predators make it into North america they won't get far into Canada allowing the Marsupials to evolve and diversify with out their main predators following them into the old world.

I can just see Hominids being chased by Marsupial sabertooths in Africa and Marsupial cave bear equivelents in Eurasia!
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Venatosaurus
Member Avatar
HAUS OF SPEC
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Actually thinking about it, this world would be completely different from our world today. Without birds existing, earlier pollination wouldn't be as plentiful, thus some plants don't reach certain locations, and an herbivore may not get enough food, therfore a carnivore doesn't get to kill and goes hungry, yet a pack of scavenging animals get a more plentiful meal...What I'm trying to say is that several variables would occur, thus the present result would not be like today, homomids not may arise, carnivorans may have stayed in the trees, carnivorous ungulates may have still persisted etc, etc. So remember don't just exclude birds, but exclude their influence on the environment, and how it'd affect post K-T life ;)



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canis Lupis
Member Avatar
Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

There is another possibility to consider. I e-mailed this project to my friend Metalraptor, and he says that another possibility are the apatemyids.

Apparently, they had an elongated middle finger and were sort of like proto-primates. I don't know much about them, so if someone could provide more info, that would be great (not meaning to put you on the spot here, but Metalraptor told me Venatosaurus first suggested it).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Venatosaurus
Member Avatar
HAUS OF SPEC
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Yes, I completely forgot about them ! They were intended to be in the original Squamozoic he and I planned ! Sadly I don't remember too well, bit Canis tell Metal to email me ! I miss that kid :D



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canis Lupis
Member Avatar
Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

I'll be sure to tell him.

Anyway, not on the subject of flying mammals, but I'm of the mind that ungulates will do quite well here. Even the carnivorous ones. Without the birds hunting them early on, unglates get the chance to diversify very quickly.

BTW, does anyone who is more paleontologically astute know why the carnivorous ungulates went extinct?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ATEK Azul
Member Avatar
Transhuman
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
The effect of the Birds disapearing on enviroment is a very good point we hadn't thought about.

And speaking of the enviromental impact alot of Islands would be without flora until Bats diversify or the new group what ever they are diversify this would mean that a lot of Islands would have ocean based food chains instead of flora based ones which could lead to interesting groups when flora finnaly does arive creating some unique animals, speaking of those animals they would all have to have rafted or swam to these Islands since flyers wont be common for a few million years.

And on the topic of Islands what would live on New Zealand?! I mean in our world birds lived there with almost nothing else so what happens if there are no animals to eat and pollinate or spread seeds there for several million years?

And then there is the possibillity that flowering plants are actually some what less common across the entire globe this would effect evolution alot as well!
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Carlos
Member Avatar
Adveho in me Lucifero
 *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
Quote:
 
Without birds existing, earlier pollination wouldn't be as plentiful, thus some plants don't reach certain locations


Er, no. Bats, insects and whatever the hell evolves as another flying vertebrate clade could act as pollinators very efficiently.

Carnivorous ungulates died for a number of reasons. I don't know what led mesonychians to extinction, but because they weren't long distance runners like modern canines and hyenas I suppose that they were gradually replaced by the earliest canines and hyenas. Entelodonts, which were apex predators, died out with the arrival of the Miocene; once grasslands replaced much of the old forest ecosystems, giant mammals like indricotheres died too, and because smaller carnivores were more adaptable carnivorans eventually won.
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Alternative Evolution · Next Topic »
Add Reply