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Birdless world; stronger K-T
Topic Started: Nov 5 2009, 08:41 PM (4,601 Views)
Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

65 million years ago, an asteroid struck Earth and wiped out a good percentage of life on the planet.

Among the extinct were all dinosaurs (save for birds), all air reptiles, all marine reptiles, and a few groups I forgot to mention (I'm not a paleontologist, so if someone were to name all the groups that went extinct, I'd be grateful).



Anyway, what I was wondering was: what if the asteroid had been slightly larger? Large enough to count the birds among those forever buried in the fossil record.

What would the post K-T world be like without birds?

Discuss ideas and possible creatures.


P.S. If you're interested in turning this into an actual project, let me know.
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ATEK Azul
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Bats Rating 10: In my opinion they are going to be there in some form no matter what even if a few new groups evolve they could always fall back on the niches of our world.

Marsupial(or South american relative) rating 6: With both Australia and South America Isolated at least at some point after the K-T and with no flyers for a while if they can evolve fast enough they can become flyers some what easy and with their isolation in order to find new areas they will need to migrate which as previosly mentioned they have a reproductive advantage in mybe allowing them to mate and give birth while in the air landing for rest and food only perhaps?

Primate rating 8: As stated they might have been more insectivorous in earlier times along with I beleave more primative members having gliding membranes makes them very likely, those features combined with their bigger Brains and color vision make them good canidates for day time flying niches.

Multituberculate rating 3-4: While they may have tree forms and a Marsupial like reproduction they had low numbers after the K-T extinction which may delay their evolution into flying forms along with their specialized dentition which might restrict them to a small number of niches. Though if they did evolve flying forms and survived they might effect Plant reproduction as flora take advantage of their unique dentition.

Squamate rating 2: They have potential but Mammals will get here first especially with out Birds holding them back they are no match for mammals even with their potential.

Ungulate/Cetacean(rating 5-6) and Notoungulate(I know very little about these, so rating 2-3) ancestors with toes: The Ungulate and Cetacean ancestors had carnivores and herbivores giving them some possibillity especially as more advanced forms(with toed Ungulates) or better groups like carnivora and Cetacea(with the Carnivorous ones) force them to die or find new niches. The main features that make flying possible are the diet, muscular and streamlining abillities of these primative forms might allow them to find flying niches(can you imagine being kicked to death by hooves from a horse headed bird like animal?). And I do think they might still loose fingers allowing them to have more Bird like wings. As for the Notoungulates I don't think they have carnivores but primative forms might have the same chance as Ungulates of simular niches?

Flying Rodents(rating 7) and Lagomorphs(rating 6): Rodents can already glide in our time line flying should not be to hard for them to develope with less competition. As for Lagomorphs Rabbits and hare jump so if they were in a canyon/mountain or forest habitat and developed gliding membranes they would have more luck then rodents with their hopping giving them an advantage.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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The Dodo
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I would be careful with the Metazoic, I think JohnFaa will smite you for any mention of it.

I think bats are obliviously the best candidate but for a second group I would put my bets on a second group of flying rodents.
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ATEK Azul
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Well Dodo I can see your reasoning but in order to get through the Diversity that will spring from Bats another group will need to get evolving towards flight quick after the K-T extinction and Rodents didn't become dominant until they out competed the Multituberculates which will make them take longer to go towards flying when they are trying to out compete an established group.
Edited by ATEK Azul, Nov 7 2009, 12:34 AM.
I am dyslexic, please ignore the typo's!
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Carlos
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Again, I say that Metazoica's bats are bullshit. Aerodynacally, they fail at many levels, from the long, heavy tails to the very low wing loading. Also, a quadrupedal take off, as seen in pterosaurs and our bats, is more efficient; taking off using only the back legs would lead to large leg muscles, and that plus the legs would only be unnecessary weight on their air. Okay, you can use the design for winged primates and marsupials (so long as you make their wings larger and their tails smaller and thinner), because they'd evolved independently from bats obviously, but no metazoican bats.

You can, however, go original with bats. Perhaps they could mimic John Conway's pterosaurs and have their wing membranes attached to the hip instead of in the back legs; with the hind limbs free, they could be used like a birds uses the tail feathers, for steering, thanks to the uropatagium.
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

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Holben
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bats and rats are pretty much the most successfully evolved mammals bar us.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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sam999
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JohnFaa
Nov 7 2009, 03:22 AM
Again, I say that Metazoica's bats are bullshit. Aerodynacally, they fail at many levels, from the long, heavy tails to the very low wing loading. Also, a quadrupedal take off, as seen in pterosaurs and our bats, is more efficient; taking off using only the back legs would lead to large leg muscles, and that plus the legs would only be unnecessary weight on their air. Okay, you can use the design for winged primates and marsupials (so long as you make their wings larger and their tails smaller and thinner), because they'd evolved independently from bats obviously, but no metazoican bats.

You can, however, go original with bats. Perhaps they could mimic John Conway's pterosaurs and have their wing membranes attached to the hip instead of in the back legs; with the hind limbs free, they could be used like a birds uses the tail feathers, for steering, thanks to the uropatagium.
And from there the bats evlove into the same niches filled by birds here. Insted of tarror birds the predator from primel or something like it. I would love to see a bat in a pengin niche. :P
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

What, with vestigial wings n' all?
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Oh, obviously bats will still have air niches. That's a no-brainer.

Atek, first I just want to say: congrats! You are now a speculative biologist, not just a fantasy biologist. That reasoning was actually pretty plausible. I actually got a kick reading it. Congrats!

Anyway, John, that bat design you made is, I think, what Metazoica tried to do. But I don't want to rehash the debate, so let's drop the Metazoica thing.

As with terrabats instead of terrabirds, they'd have to be quadropeds. Unless something radical happened in bat skeletal structure, they wouldn't readily become bipeds. But with the rudder leg structure JohnFaa suggested, they could become bipedal.

As for a cetacean/noto-ungulate fliers, I doubt it. The earliest ancestor of the ungulates, hoofed-carnivores, and cetaceans was a shrew-like mammal that was restricted to the ground. Subsequent forms evolved to be more adept at terrestrial living. Then more subsequent forms evolved to take over carnivorous and herbivorous niches. One creature, the pakicetus, took to fishing and water-living. This evolved into the cetaceans of today.

Therefore, I don't put much faith into a cetacean/noto-ungulate flier.

Nor do I put much faith in a lagomorph flier. True, it could happen. But lagomorphs are almost exclusively herbivorous (only a few exceptions within genus Lepus). Therefore, I don't see a reason for them to fly other than to just say "Hey ma! Look what I can do!". That's not a reason, so I doubt they'd evolve fliers. Instead, I see them evolving as runners, like they've been doing since they first appeared in the fossil record. Herbivores tend to either evolve as faster runners, as a larger animal, as a more weaponized animal (tusks, horns, etc), as a more cunning animal (one of the reasons behind man's evolution), as a more camouflaged animal, or as animals with more heightened senses.

Since lagomorphs are already speedy (and since that's what they have been evolving towards since they first appeared), I doubt they'll develop flight.

I've got to agree with you on squamates. Squamates tend to use their ribs for gliding. Unless they evolved a second set of ribs, they wouldn't evolve flight with these rib-wings. If they did, they're vital organs would be way too vulnerable. Though, of course, the sqamates could easily evolve a larger sternum to cover the heart and lungs.

And I've also got to agree with you on the multis. They'd become extinct before they even had a chance of evolving flying forms.

So I think our most likely candidates are definantly:
  • Bats
  • Primates
  • Rodents (sciurids are definantly the better bet)
  • Marsupials


Bats are gonna make it in there, no problem. But it's a debate between whether bats will completely rule the air niches, or whether primates, sciurids, or marsupials will share the niche.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

Remember, the crocodile were quite successful in the Palaeocene and Eocene. Will they feature possibly gliding terrestrial forms?

EDIT:Maybe not actually. I take that back.
Edited by Holben, Nov 7 2009, 11:07 AM.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of gliding crocs.

Crocs could take more niches on land. In fact, they could sort of be the reptillian answer to birds (though, of course, the crocs wouldn't fly).

I'm thinking (and I've heard mentioned) that crocs weren't so prevalent and dominating in the Cenozoic due to climate change and competition from birds. The Eocene climate change wouldn't be that huge of an issue, so long as the crocs stayed in the warmer regions. Though I'm thinking some crocs from the Paleogene were warm-blooded.

If the crocs do become more prevalent, they could provide some competition for mammals. And in fact, this could spur some mammals to become fliers.
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Holben
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Rumbo a la Victoria

My point exactly.

Anywhot, I'd like to see some weaponised bats.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

Weaponized bats?
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Holben
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Yeah, you mentioned weaponisation and you mentioned bats. I put them together. :")
It gave me an idea of a monocerosian bat though.
Time flows like a river. Which is to say, downhill. We can tell this because everything is going downhill rapidly. It would seem prudent to be somewhere else when we reach the sea.

"It is the old wound my king. It has never healed."
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Carlos
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Quote:
 
But with the rudder leg structure JohnFaa suggested, they could become bipedal.


Er, no. That would only make them more aerial. And I don't see why bats need to develop bipedally; a quadrupedal take off is much more efficient.

As for crocodiles, I do think they have a lot of potential. As I've suggested elsewhere, bipedal, toothless forms akin to Effigia and Shuvosaurus could occupy the niches of ratites, with probably their closest relatives being spinosaur like fishers. From Pristichampsus hyena/canine like forms could diversify, with mekosuchines and sebecosuchians producing similar forms in Australia and South America respectively, with a good amount of ambush predators.
Lemuria:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/

Terra Alternativa:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/forum/460637/

My Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/Carliro

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Canis Lupis
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Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth.

True, quadropedal would be advantageous.

However, I'm not seeing why a croc would go toothless or bipedal when a tooth-filled mouth and a quadropedal stature is effective.
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